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How is it even comparable to prohibition? Providing alcohol only to those legally old enough to drink is not that hard to do. It just has to be the policy of the sorority/fraternity and enforced.
Then they will drink at the house down the street.
If the party is held by the sorority/fraternity, then the chapter needs to get the boot.
Enforcement needs to be moved to the Greeks themselves, not the schools or local law enforcement. If they allow underage drinking at any events, they need to have the chapter closed by the parent organization. Until then, there will continue to be alcohol related tragedies.
If the party is held by the sorority/fraternity, then the chapter needs to get the boot.
Enforcement needs to be moved to the Greeks themselves, not the schools or local law enforcement. If they allow underage drinking at any events, they need to have the chapter closed by the parent organization. Until then, there will continue to be alcohol related tragedies.
Lowering the legal drinking age is not the answer.
You simply repeated what I dismissed. They aren't going to send out engraved invitations. If they don't drink at one place they will another. You are not going to ever stop college kids from drinking. Stop fooling yourself that you will.
You simply repeated what I dismissed. They aren't going to send out engraved invitations. If they don't drink at one place they will another. You are not going to ever stop college kids from drinking. Stop fooling yourself that you will.
The title of the thread is "The Greek Fatality". I understood it to be about the Greek culture fostering abuse of alcohol. The only way that will change is from within the Greek culture itself. The Greeks need to stop setting up situations that actually encourage under age drinking and binging.
People in the 18 to 20 year old age group obviously do drink. About 45% of them, in fact, and a significant number of those binge drink or drink heavily. See page 32 here:
About 70% of the next age cohort, 21 to 25 years old, drink. That implies that over a third of that age group waited until legal age to drink. So not every under age college student drinks.
The question is what can be done to de-emphasize drinking as part of the social experience in college. I think the sororities and fraternities could do a lot in that regard.
In case you wonder, I am not a teetotaler, and I had my first alcoholic beverage when I was in college, at the then legal age of 18, at a sorority party. I still have the glass it was served in.
"Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence that young Europeans drink more responsibly than their counterparts in the US.
A greater percentage of young people from all of the European countries except Iceland report drinking in the past 30 days.
A majority of the European countries included in this study have higher intoxication rates among young people than the United States and about one third of the countries have equal or lower rates to the United States; and
For a majority of these European countries, a greater percentage of young people report having been intoxicated before the age of 13."
"Studies have consistently shown that youth who start drinking and heavy drinking at a younger age are at significantly greater risk for a range of alcohol problems, including car crashes, drinking and driving, suicidal thoughts and attempts, unintentional injury, as well as drug and alcohol dependence later in life."
Your premise that younger legal age for drinking results in more responsible attitudes toward drinking is false.
In the US, increasing the legal drinking age to 21 contributed to fewer alcohol related motor vehicle crashes in the age group affected by the change.
The only change within the Greek system that will have any effect on under age and binge drinking is a zero tolerance policy within the sororities and fraternities themselves, powered by alumni and the advisers to the chapters. That means that there must be policies against providing alcohol to those under age and then enforcing them, even if that means revoking charters of chapters that do not keep alcohol out of the hands of those who are too young to legally drink.
Let me ask you Suzy... have you ever lived in Europe? I lived there for several years, and have family living there now. There are few incidents of group binge drinking in Europe, and the reason is people are taught respectful drinking from an early age.
Whether or not there is a "single" drinking age, any drinking age is seldom enforced there, anywhere. Peoples' drinking habits are best formed in the home with parents exercising the control, and with proper modeling so that proper behavior with alcohol is learned.
Essentially this points out that age is not a factor. Control proponents (almost everyone who favors greater involvement in just about every aspect of peoples' lives), will grab onto anything and twist facts to suit their positions. We could eliminate drinking for everyone, or people could simply stay home and reduce motor vehicle crashes. Greater education is far more likely to have reduced alcohol related crashes than some arbitrary age restriction. And, Germany, which has a seldom enforced 16 year old drinking age has few problems with young adults using alcohol. I lived in Europe for several years, and am not aware of any European country that makes age an issue in terms of drinking activity. Generally, if you can get up on a bar stool you can order a drink in Europe. They assume that your parents were savy enough to teach you to use it wisely. In our country, we try to eliminate that possibility altogether.
We're really big on causes here, even misguided ones. MADD has everyone believing that if someone has a drink, and has an accident, that accident is "alcohol related" and alcohol must have been the cause. I believe that the vast majority of those accidents would have happened anyway, and that if a person just happened to have a drink or two it wouldn't have affected the outcome one way or another. Of course somebody can have too much to drink and act irresponsibly. But, in general for that to happen it would take more than what the control folks would have you believe, and we have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not a particular drink caused an accident even though it is counted in endless statistics.
The key is to teach our youth to drink responsibly, and enforcement efforts based on age criteria clearly force more binge drinking by moving the activity away from more controlled environments. That leads to more bad behavior. There are people in Morgantown who clearly realize this, and they are trying to keep the focus where it belongs... on the behavior, not on the age. Anybody 18 and older is an adult, and they are expected to behave accordingly. Behave yourself, and you're going to be left alone.
Let me ask you Suzy... have you ever lived in Europe? I lived there for several years, and have family living there now. There are few incidents of group binge drinking in Europe, and the reason is people are taught respectful drinking from an early age.
Whether or not there is a "single" drinking age, any drinking age is seldom enforced there, anywhere. Peoples' drinking habits are best formed in the home with parents exercising the control, and with proper modeling so that proper behavior with alcohol is learned.
Essentially this points out that age is not a factor. Control proponents (almost everyone who favors greater involvement in just about every aspect of peoples' lives), will grab onto anything and twist facts to suit their positions. We could eliminate drinking for everyone, or people could simply stay home and reduce motor vehicle crashes. Greater education is far more likely to have reduced alcohol related crashes than some arbitrary age restriction. And, Germany, which has a seldom enforced 16 year old drinking age has few problems with young adults using alcohol. I lived in Europe for several years, and am not aware of any European country that makes age an issue in terms of drinking activity. Generally, if you can get up on a bar stool you can order a drink in Europe. They assume that your parents were savy enough to teach you to use it wisely. In our country, we try to eliminate that possibility altogether.
We're really big on causes here, even misguided ones. MADD has everyone believing that if someone has a drink, and has an accident, that accident is "alcohol related" and alcohol must have been the cause. I believe that the vast majority of those accidents would have happened anyway, and that if a person just happened to have a drink or two it wouldn't have affected the outcome one way or another. Of course somebody can have too much to drink and act irresponsibly. But, in general for that to happen it would take more than what the control folks would have you believe, and we have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not a particular drink caused an accident even though it is counted in endless statistics.
The key is to teach our youth to drink responsibly, and enforcement efforts based on age criteria clearly force more binge drinking by moving the activity away from more controlled environments. That leads to more bad behavior. There are people in Morgantown who clearly realize this, and they are trying to keep the focus where it belongs... on the behavior, not on the age. Anybody 18 and older is an adult, and they are expected to behave accordingly. Behave yourself, and you're going to be left alone.
No, I have never lived in Europe. However, your anecdotal experience seems to be contradicted by actual studies.
You keep ignoring the previous link I gave:
"Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence that young Europeans drink more responsibly than their counterparts in the US.
A greater percentage of young people from all of the European countries except Iceland report drinking in the past 30 days.
A majority of the European countries included in this study have higher intoxication rates among young people than the United States and about one third of the countries have equal or lower rates to the United States; and
For a majority of these European countries, a greater percentage of young people report having been intoxicated before the age of 13."
More evidence that young drinkers in Europe are not more responsible:
"The study, published in the scientific journal Pediatrics, stated: "Icelandic youth had the lowest rates of binge drinking, whereas youths in The Netherlands, Scotland and Germany had the highest."
"Factors that were associated with binge drinking included peer drinking, sensation seeking and rebelliousness, school performance, age and sibling drinking."
"The drinking cultures in countries like Scotland, Germany and Holland are the same but in Iceland they are different because people have maybe one or two drinks with a meal. They don't drink in binges."
Perhaps we should be emulating Iceland, not Germany. The legal drinking age in Iceland is 20, only low alcohol beer is sold in grocery stores; everything else is sold in government stores. Days, hours, and places of sale are restricted. Advertising is totally banned, as is product placement in movies and on TV. The blood alcohol level for driving while intoxicated is 0.05, lower for novice drivers and commercial drivers.
"In the study, drivers who tested positive for blood alcohol at levels well-below the legal BAC limit were more likely to be in severe car accidents than sober drivers largely because they drove significantly faster, were less likely to be appropriately using a seatbelt, and were usually driving the striking vehicle.
The more alcohol the driver drank, the faster that they were likely to be driving, and the more severe the car accident was likely to be, the study shows."
Obviously we need to convince everyone to drink responsibly. That includes making responsible drinking part of Greek culture on college campuses.
No, I have never lived in Europe. However, your anecdotal experience seems to be contradicted by actual studies.
You keep ignoring the previous link I gave:
"Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence that young Europeans drink more responsibly than their counterparts in the US.
A greater percentage of young people from all of the European countries except Iceland report drinking in the past 30 days.
A majority of the European countries included in this study have higher intoxication rates among young people than the United States and about one third of the countries have equal or lower rates to the United States; and
For a majority of these European countries, a greater percentage of young people report having been intoxicated before the age of 13."
More evidence that young drinkers in Europe are not more responsible:
"The study, published in the scientific journal Pediatrics, stated: "Icelandic youth had the lowest rates of binge drinking, whereas youths in The Netherlands, Scotland and Germany had the highest."
"Factors that were associated with binge drinking included peer drinking, sensation seeking and rebelliousness, school performance, age and sibling drinking."
"The drinking cultures in countries like Scotland, Germany and Holland are the same but in Iceland they are different because people have maybe one or two drinks with a meal. They don't drink in binges."
Perhaps we should be emulating Iceland, not Germany. The legal drinking age in Iceland is 20, only low alcohol beer is sold in grocery stores; everything else is sold in government stores. Days, hours, and places of sale are restricted. Advertising is totally banned, as is product placement in movies and on TV. The blood alcohol level for driving while intoxicated is 0.05, lower for novice drivers and commercial drivers.
"In the study, drivers who tested positive for blood alcohol at levels well-below the legal BAC limit were more likely to be in severe car accidents than sober drivers largely because they drove significantly faster, were less likely to be appropriately using a seatbelt, and were usually driving the striking vehicle.
The more alcohol the driver drank, the faster that they were likely to be driving, and the more severe the car accident was likely to be, the study shows."
Obviously we need to convince everyone to drink responsibly. That includes making responsible drinking part of Greek culture on college campuses.
Suzy, it is important to consider that fact that "studies" as often as not are conducted to reinforce the point of view of the group conducting the "study". Few are unbiased, and I believe it is evident on the face that a study conducted by the "Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth" is likely to have a built in bias in the results they are seeking.
And, "evidence" that says even a small amount of alcohol "MAY" impair driving also includes the strong possibility that it might not impair driving. Listening to the radio may impair driving too, as might talking on a cell phone, smoking a cigarette, talking with your boyfriend, or having his hand between your legs. There are reactionary groups that are actually funded by control mongers for the purpose of running around dragging out any possible statistics they can use to their advantage, and our culture in inundated with them.
I had honestly forgotten that people live on Iceland, but it should not be surprising that the most socialist control country in Europe would also be the one to impose restrictions. I can only tell you from my very strong anecdotal experience of living there for 4 years and having a daughter, a son in law, and 2 grandchildren living there now that Europe pays scant attention to drinking laws, and in general they have few problems with groups of binge drinkers. These days the primary problems they are having there are groups of radical Muslims who have taken over their cities, are raising havoc at every turn, demanding special treatment and causing massive destruction. Their students are not running around in groups turning over dumpsters and burning couches, and I don't care how many "studies" MADD and their minions trot out... I know these things from personal experience. I also know from years of experience that there is no way they would be able to socially engineer young people into not drinking near college campuses.
If you are going to try to alter behavior, you have to take the facts as they present themselves and work with reality. It is better for that drinking to take place in bars, because the bar owners have a vested interest in controlling behavior there. If you drive it underground, there is more likelihood that binge drinking will result and the potential for damage is much greater. Control efforts actually result in negative outcomes, and that is why many college presidents are against them. Holding people responsible for their demonstrated behavior on a personal basis does yield positive results. Examples must be made of perpetrators of poor behavior. Eliminate the fines for "underage" drinking, and double the fines for disorderly conduct and you will accomplish something. Suspend a few people for disorderly conduct, and you will accomplish even more. Expel them for second offense disorderly conduct, make it public knowledge, and major changes in group behavior are likely to take place.
Suzy, it is important to consider that fact that "studies" as often as not are conducted to reinforce the point of view of the group conducting the "study". Few are unbiased, and I believe it is evident on the face that a study conducted by the "Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth" is likely to have a built in bias in the results they are seeking.
And, "evidence" that says even a small amount of alcohol "MAY" impair driving also includes the strong possibility that it might not impair driving. Listening to the radio may impair driving too, as might talking on a cell phone, smoking a cigarette, talking with your boyfriend, or having his hand between your legs. There are reactionary groups that are actually funded by control mongers for the purpose of running around dragging out any possible statistics they can use to their advantage, and our culture in inundated with them.
I had honestly forgotten that people live on Iceland, but it should not be surprising that the most socialist control country in Europe would also be the one to impose restrictions. I can only tell you from my very strong anecdotal experience of living there for 4 years and having a daughter, a son in law, and 2 grandchildren living there now that Europe pays scant attention to drinking laws, and in general they have few problems with groups of binge drinkers. These days the primary problems they are having there are groups of radical Muslims who have taken over their cities, are raising havoc at every turn, demanding special treatment and causing massive destruction. Their students are not running around in groups turning over dumpsters and burning couches, and I don't care how many "studies" MADD and their minions trot out... I know these things from personal experience. I also know from years of experience that there is no way they would be able to socially engineer young people into not drinking near college campuses.
If you are going to try to alter behavior, you have to take the facts as they present themselves and work with reality. It is better for that drinking to take place in bars, because the bar owners have a vested interest in controlling behavior there. If you drive it underground, there is more likelihood that binge drinking will result and the potential for damage is much greater. Control efforts actually result in negative outcomes, and that is why many college presidents are against them. Holding people responsible for their demonstrated behavior on a personal basis does yield positive results. Examples must be made of perpetrators of poor behavior. Eliminate the fines for "underage" drinking, and double the fines for disorderly conduct and you will accomplish something. Suspend a few people for disorderly conduct, and you will accomplish even more. Expel them for second offense disorderly conduct, make it public knowledge, and major changes in group behavior are likely to take place.
The Center on Alcohol marketing and Youth is located in the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and is funded by the CDC. What bias do you perceive that it has? remember that Iceland does not allow marketing of alcoholic beverages. Are you familiar with "alcopop"? If you do not think that those products are targeted at young drinkers, you might want to reconsider. Marketing of alcohol is an important issue.
Do you really think that "It is better for that drinking to take place in bars, because the bar owners have a vested interest in controlling behavior there." ? A binge drinker of legal age gets cut off in one bar, he just leaves and goes to another. Bars should be checking ID and not serving minors. Enforcement there is out of the bailiwick of the college or university and is not really the issue in the thread, which is sororities and fraternities actually applying pressure on underage students to drink.
You seem determined to ignore evidence that does not match your personal experience. Instead of blithely dismissing it, please show me evidence that contradicts what I have presented. "Europe" does have problems with binge drinking in its underage population, though the magnitude varies with country. That you do not see it does not mean it does not happen.
Teaching responsible use by allowing kids to drink at home does not work, either:
"Adult-supervised settings for alcohol use resulted in higher levels of harmful alcohol consequences, contrary to predictions derived from harm-minimization policy. Findings challenge the harm-minimization position that supervised alcohol use or early-age alcohol use will reduce the development of adolescent alcohol problems."
Your denial that low doses of alcohol impair the ability to drive sounds suspiciously like an attempt to rationalize your own behavior. The degree of impairment by alcohol is proportional to dose and begins at a blood alcohol level not much greater than zero.
The studies included measured actual effects of alcohol on specific driving skills in laboratory settings.
To get back to the topic of the thread. The Greek system needs to undergo a fundamental change in its approach to drinking. That means not applying pressure on underage students to drink and not serving alcohol to them at all. Sorority and fraternity alumni need to spearhead the change. Underage drinking is a behavior, too, and applying strict penalties for it makes more sense than waiting until destructive behavior results from it. The national leadership of the sororities and fraternities - the grown-ups in those institutions - need to take charge and set and enforce policies of not serving alcohol to minors and not condoning binge drinking by anyone.
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