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And? PETA advocates vegetarianism because they are an animal welfare organization, so vegetarianism, the avoidance of killing animals for food, is something that makes complete sense for them to advocate as well. And if you think vegetarianism is bad for humans, there are numerous sources that will prove you wrong, including this information from the Harvard Medical School:
No, they don't prove me wrong, only that it is possible to remain healthy on a vegan diet-- IF you're willing to exploit the petroleum industry and ship your food in from South & Central America all winter.
Poorly developed molars, short intestinal tract, forward facing, binocular eyes, no ability to produce B12, copious lipase & meager amylase production..etc etc.. ALL point to adaptation for a carnivorous lifestyle in humans. Our ancestors could eat plants, but they didn't want to. Eating plants increases insulin production, which stimulates lipogenesis & inhibits lipolysis, ie- prepares us for times of scarcity of good (ie- meat) food. There's a reason carnivores are smart and herbivores are dumb: it takes little intelligence to sneak up on grass. Our large brains evolved because we are carnivores.
We can also hold our breathes and stay underwater for 2 minutes. That doesn't mean we're supposed to be aquatic.
PETA does not have science on its side. QED.
PS/ That's what's nice about a capitalistic, free society: if you don't like Sea World, don't support them. If you do, then go and see their shows. But nobody should be forcing their ideology on anybody else.
What is the life expectancy of a baby Orca born in the wild? How difficult is it for a whale to survive in the wild? What diseases is it subject to in the wild?
Male orcas in the wild generally live into their late 30s. Female orcas live longer: at least 60 years (with some documented cases of whales living to age 90). This is a FAR LONGER lifespan than is achieved in captivity, which is the exact opposite of what is true for most captive species.
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Those of you who dislike this program probably are in favor of seed banks to preserve rare plant species. Is there a difference, other than the cuteness factor?
Uh, sentience?
A seed has no mind. An orca demonstrably does.
I'm no blanket enemy of keeping animal species in captivity; some species do fine in a zoo setting. Orcas are not one of those species. They are simply too large, too social, and too intelligent for us to adequately meet their needs in a captive setting.
Now if we could build a tank the size of Puget Sound, keeping a pod in captivity would be much less controversial.
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Why is there no "Save the Spiders, Roaches, Rats & Snakes Foundation?"
I'm sure there are conservation organizations concerned about small mammals and reptiles as well.
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Do any of you know what "anthropomorphism" is?
Yes, and it's not in play in this case. Noting that we cannot adequately meet the physical and psychological needs of this particular marine species in a captive environment is not anthropocentric.
Yes, and it's not in play in this case. Noting that we cannot adequately meet the physical and psychological needs of this particular marine species in a captive environment is not anthropocentric.
You're assuming a lot. How do you know their needs are not met? You're assuming their needs are like yours. QED.
In reference to life of Orcas in the wild: there's a difference between longevity and life expectancy. Humans can, for example, live to be 100+, but life expectancy is less than 80 in developed nations and only 40 or so in under-developed nations, and it's the under-developed countries that are the "natural" ones. Where would you like to live?
You're assuming a lot. How do you know their needs are not met? You're assuming their needs are like yours. QED.
No, I am not. I am assuming their needs, both physical and psychological, are adequately met in the wild, which (particularly from a social standpoint) is nothing like their captive situation.
Did you know that male orcas spend their ENTIRE life by their mother's side? They never leave their natal pod, ever. Females do leave, eventually, after they've had several calves of their own - which means they're in their late 20s or early 30s when they finally form a new pod of their own, as they only calve every 4 years or so. And even after they've become the matriarch of their own pod, they still have occasional friendly contact with their mother's pod for as long as their mother is alive. In captivity, by contrast, orca calves of both sexes are permanently separated from their mother when they are 3 to 4 years old, and sent to different facilities where they are mixed with strange animals - something they'd never experience in the wild. Orca groups in captivity no more resemble natural pods than a random collection of humans from different countries speaking different languages tossed together in an institution resembles a natural human family.
Did you know that orcas in the wild cam swim as far as 100 miles in a single day? Did you know that different pods specialize in different prey types (fish versus small marine mammals versus whales)? The groups that live in deep water and hunt baleen whales may not even be the same species as the shallow-water fish and seal specialists (no one's completely sure, because the deep-water orcas are much harder to study, for obvious reasons, but DNA evidence suggests the two types have been reproductively separate for hundreds of thousands of years). That they even have different calls? Never mind, in captivity we've mixed all the various types together.
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In reference to life of Orcas in the wild: there's a difference between longevity and life expectancy. Humans can, for example, live to be 100+, but life expectancy is less than 80 in developed nations and only 40 or so in under-developed nations, and it's the under-developed countries that are the "natural" ones. Where would you like to live?
Most large, slow-breeding mammals have a natural infant mortality rate of approximately 30- 50%; orcas (like humans) are no exception. It's the higher infant death rate that gives those developing countries their low life expectancy; survive infancy, and your chances of living to old age are actually fairly good.
Does it suck for those orcas in the wild that don't survive infancy? Yes - but I can't see how the natural mortality rate means orcas are actually better off in captivity where their natural instincts and drives are constantly thwarted and where they have no opportunity to move about as they are meant to do.
Orcas belong in the ocean, not in a bathtub performing tricks for the amusement of the ignorant. Whatever value the Seaworld shows may once have had is gone; we've learned enough about these creatures after 50 years of studying wild orcas to know we can't do justice to their needs in a captive environment. What was acceptable back in the 1970s, when we didn't know any better, simply isn't acceptable today.
(Now if orcas were the size of hamsters, we could keep them in captivity in natural pods with plenty of space to move about and engage in natural behaviors, no problem. Ultimately it's their sheer size that causes the biggest problem with keeping them in a captive environment.)
You're still making assumptions. Do geese know they are flying south for the winter? Are they unhappy if they can't fly south? How do you know? (BTW- if goose down is supposed to be so warm, why do they fly south for the winter?)
How many orcas are there in the world? How may in captivity? A statistically significant number? How much good will a captive breeding program eventually do if the natural population crashes? What's the risk/benefit ratio of having a captive program?
Make decisions based on science, not the wish fulfillment dreams in your fantasies.
Assumptions based on actual observations, not on "wish fulfillment dreams," as you claim. You talk as if it's impossible to determine anything about the interior state of mind of an animal, which is simply not true. Abnormal behavior can be observed. Stress responses can be observed. And orcas in captivity exhibit them.
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Do geese know they are flying south for the winter? Are they unhappy if they can't fly south? How do you know? (BTW- if goose down is supposed to be so warm, why do they fly south for the winter?)
Geese, like most migratory birds, fly south for the winter because they will starve to death if they do not. In places where human alteration of the environment has increased the available winter food supply for them, they do NOT in fact migrate. So, no, we have no reason to think that geese which are prevented from migrating but which are well-fed are unhappy, since free-living geese voluntarily give up the behavior under those circumstances.
And of course they know they are flying, and in what direction! In fact, young geese have to learn the migratory route from their parents. What they probably do knot know is WHY they feel the strong urge to migrate. That requires a higher level of abstract thought than most animal species seem to possess.
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How many orcas are there in the world? How may in captivity? A statistically significant number? How much good will a captive breeding program eventually do if the natural population crashes? What's the risk/benefit ratio of having a captive program?
Best estimates are that the world population of orcas is at least 50,000, and probably higher. There are only 56 orcas in captivity worldwide; way too few to serve as a viable long-term breeding population. If this species is lost in the wild, we cannot save it by captive breeding. (Orcas raised in captivity could not be reintroduced to the ocean in any case, as they lack the necessary survival skills, which are learned rather than instinctive.). We give up nothing as far as species survival is concerned if we stop breeding orcas in captivity. This species will survive in the ocean, or not at all.
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Make decisions based on science, not the wish fulfillment dreams in your fantasies.
Unlike you, I am basing my reasoning on science. You seem to be basing yours on the assumption that amimals are mere lumps of clay that can be manipulated in whatever ways we wish without experiencing harm. That is simply not the case.
How many orcas are there in the world? How may in captivity? A statistically significant number? How much good will a captive breeding program eventually do if the natural population crashes? What's the risk/benefit ratio of having a captive program?
If orca's in the wild go extinct it is the fault of humans (over-fishing, pollution, poaching)---forcing breeding "UNNATURALLY" on orca's in a facility is inhumane and wrong. That is not a viable solution. Sea-World doesn't allow these animals to mate naturally, doesn't allow them the space to swim miles per day, they suffer collapsed dorsal fins, grinding down of teeth because of stress. They are held captive against their will, stolen from the ocean; from their family and forced to perform tricks. In fact many whom didn't cooperate were withheld food as punishment.
How anyone can not see the abuse of these animals, is in denial. simple. We are living in the 21st century now and have come a long way towards recognizing the beauty and power of these marine animals.
When Willy was set free Every one was happy he was returned to the wild.... Willy Died less than a year later... Sad But TRUE! There were No Vets in the Wild to treat him when he got sick. Yes Willy was capture in the Wild by Poachers
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