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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by avg12
I'm sure that played an affect. I was adding that Marlton also did, which you seem to not acknowledge. In 1999, the Echelon mall was still stronger than Deptford or Moorestown as far as number of national stores.
Sure, every center takes a hit when there is new competition. The retail outlets will siphen off from likely all the malls, esp. the nearby ones.
Practically nobody in Cherry Hill east or Voorhees will shop at Deptford and that was Echelon's primary base.
Regarding Echelon, another thing that likely made a difference was the removal of the Ellisburg Circle in the early 90s. Cherry Hill Mall, for those east of that circle, became a little more accessible with that removal even though it as a longer hike. Moorestown gaining Strawbridge's (the primary dept. store of the region) and L&T also made Echelon's Strawbridge's less important. There were also new homes going into Mt.Laurel and further east in Burlington County, which is nowhere near Echelon.
Removing Ellisburg Circle didn't effect much concerning Echelon. Most people knew how to get to Cherry Hill & Moorestown malls without using the circle.
I agree with Goat that the outlets will have a minimal effect on Deptford Mall.
Removing Ellisburg Circle didn't effect much concerning Echelon. Most people knew how to get to Cherry Hill & Moorestown malls without using the circle.
I agree with Goat that the outlets will have a minimal effect on Deptford Mall.
It kinda did. From Marlton and east Cherry Hill, west Cherry Hill through 70 was easier to get to, but hey let's dispute everything.
According to your logic, Echelon's downturn was primarily because of Deptford, but the outdoor mall won't take any business from Deptford or other centers. Designer brand jeans, apparel etc. will be able to be bought at this outdoor mall. It's not a Home Depot going in.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by avg12
It kinda did. From Marlton and east Cherry Hill, west Cherry Hill through 70 was easier to get to, but hey let's dispute everything.
According to your logic, Echelon's downturn was primarily because of Deptford, but the outdoor mall won't take any business from Deptford or other centers. Designer brand jeans, apparel etc. will be able to be bought at this outdoor mall. It's not a Home Depot going in.
The outlet mall will ding other stores that sell at lower price points. I currently live between a Simon mall & a regular retail mall. It's different crowds, for the most part.
I used to go to Echelon Mall a lot when I was a teenager because you could take PATCO to Ashland and walk there faster than you could try and take a bus or ride a bike to Cherry Hill. Echelon was a very active mall straight up into the late 90's and really started to dive hard in the early 00's.
I'm sure there are a lot of factors, but I have to think that the rise of the shopping along 73 in Marlton played a large role as well as the development of all of those "plaza" areas near the other malls around the same time. Echelon had nowhere to put in a plaza area with a Target or Walmart or something else. When they failed to keep the mall updated and evolving, it just got outstripped by the others in the area. If it was a situation where say Lion's Head and Eagle Plaza flanked the mall it may have been a very different story. As it was Echelon is very bounded with all of the residential around it and the local streets can only handle so much traffic. I think the current "Town Center" thing is the right way to go, there's almost too much retail as it is.
Yeah, I only lived there for 20 years. I ran cross country for Highland and ran down Davistown Rd every week.
I was referring to 42 as the major highway. My previous point about Black Horse Pike is that it is still pretty well-traveled, so it's not like this project will add cars to a road that rarely had any. If there is access to the outlets from BHP/Zimmerman Rd., I'd imagine they'd have to put a traffic light there.
Can you really even call that area green? Isn't most of it just fields? I know it's zoned for agriculture but do they even grow anything there?
There are a few concerns with this project, including the possible tax abatement issue and the traffic on 42 itself, but IMO your concerns just seem to be a case of NIMBY-ism.
The park I was referring to isn't just dog park, but it's very popular with dog owners so I think a lot of people just refer to it as the dog park. Technically it is called Timber Creek Park. Kinda cheesy, but here's a video.
My definition of a green space is pretty simple. It may not be correct to every one. It's a space with no buildings or human inhabitants. It can be a field for crops or just empty land. Why do we have to do something with the land?
My concerns are not just a case of NIMBY-ism. I am concerned with the increase of traffic, the tax abatement, and wild life losing their habitat. I'm so glad you have figured out that my main concern is NIMBY-ism. I have every right to be concerned about this project, especially if MY property taxes go up while this project gets to enjoy a 25 year tax abatement.
I really don't mean to come across as hostile but I don't appreciate it when someone assumes what I'm thinking.
The tax abatement thing is something that if I was a resident I would be seriously questioning the township council and mayor about. With the abatement in place, this plaza ostensibly provides zero benefit to Gloucester Township and will most likely be a net cost to residents as the township will have to make various improvements to the surrounding roads and provide police and fire coverage. Just the presence of a plaza that large may end up requiring them hiring additional police officers as you can pretty much guarantee there will be a cop there all the time. Just ask the residents of Audubon who now pay for a police officer to do nothing but drive around Audubon Plaza all day and night. Of course, Audubon only abated WalMart itself and is drawing revenue off the rest of the plaza and extracted money from WalMart to fund improvements to the towns recreational fields/programs.
If I was a resident I would be asking them what PREIT is doing for the township outside of simply developing this site. Are they rehabbing other spaces? Are they establishing funds to support the schools? Building playgrounds? What? If this is simply a case, as I think it is, of the township pushing this project through with an abatement with no follow-on benefits to the township then I would be against it. Nothing like seeing your taxes go up to support the massive new shopping plaza that's not giving your town a dime. It's not like Gloucester Township is an isolated area that needs to do something to try and attract this kind of development.
If the township council thinks that getting "Gloucester Township" on a sign associated with the mall is important or that people will give a flip about and/or recognize Gloucester Township because they have an outlet mall then they are plain delusional.
Just to clarify what I am saying, sometimes tax abatements are a good idea, but this one seems like a bad deal for Gloucester Township. Let's compare this to another major retail development in South Jersey...
Woolwich Township is finally pushing forward with plans to develop a retail complex near the intersection of Route 322 and King's Highway across from Kingsway High School. The area has grown rapidly in terms of residents, but the area lacks major retail. Woolwich has had trouble attracting an anchor tenant to the plaza and the entire plan has been stalled for the past 5 years. Woolwich desparately needs commercial ratables to help offset the residential taxes. They finally got their anchor tenant and the first phase of what will be a three phase project is underway. The anchor is WalMart and Woolwich gave them and the rest of phase one a 10-year tax abatement to sweeten the deal and get it done.
This is a good move by Woolwich. There is no major retail in existence to build off of. Anyone going into this project is taking a risk. However, Woolwich realizes that development begets development and retail areas with strong anchors attract other retailers. If phase one is succesful, which is should be, phase two and three won't need tax abatements. There is also acres of open space on the other side of the road that can also be developed. This one project could spur what might become one of the largest retail centers in that area pulling customers from Glassboro to Salem.
The problem with what Gloucester Township is doing, IMO, is that nothing else can be spawned or built off of this site. The mall will occupy the entire site and it is bounded by a major highway, lakes, county college property and residential. So, it's not as if giving these guys a tax abatement is going to help spur non-abated development in that area because there is nowhere else to develop.
I would not be surprised if several sites were being considered for the mall and Gloucester Township offered the abatement to sweeten the pot so they would win. I just think it's very short-sighted of them.
The outlet mall will ding other stores that sell at lower price points. I currently live between a Simon mall & a regular retail mall. It's different crowds, for the most part.
Yeah but those are like 40 minutes apart from each other. The new outlets will be less than 10 minutes away from Deptford Mall. I really have no idea what will happen, but I think Deptford can survive. There most certainly could be some overlap though - Simon has stores like Aeropostale, American Eagle, Gap, PacSun, Journey's, Claire's, Vitamin World, Sunglass Hut in a lot of its centers.
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