A few questions about NJ (Newark, Jersey City: low income, apartment, rental)
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1) People don't really move here. the population grows via immigration. Cost of living issues, taxes, and overall quality of life issues are main reason. Most people are too drunk on identity politics to vote Republican/fix the state, and let it flourish. (similar to NY/NYC choosing Republicans in the 80s/90s to save their state after losing millions of people in the 1970s).
2) Very Bleak future. Homes used to appreciate by 8-10% in the 90s. It fell to half that in the 2000s. and now in the 2010's, and current 2020's appreciation is around 1-2% (not even inflation). We are on the rust belt path to becoming nothing (Ohio homes do not appreciate). Bear in mind real estate bubble popped in 2009, and has yet to even break even 12 years later.
3) lol weather isn't an issue. you have all 4 seasons. all the extremes in each season. diversity to the max.
Avoid NJ or think of it as a short term investment to make money/leave.
Focus on states like FL, TX, NC, AZ, GA, UTAH, and NEVADA if you want to be a part of the growth/have a long term future.
The midwest is on life support. and NJ is reaching that stage.
*This short term 'rona spike where people come over from NYC won't last. those lottery ticket cash buyer clowns aren't focused on long term.
I moved to New Jersey from Rhode Island, so I'll offer my insights.
1. Do other people move there?
Unquestionably yes. The people that say otherwise are out of their minds. Why exactly does a house get sold immediately when reasonably priced? Yes, there is low housing stock, but demand is out of this world right now. The house I bought in Feb 2018 has increased in value by over 20%, according to my recent appraisal. New Jersey is one of the most diverse states in the country. As others have mentioned, immigrants seem to choose NJ a whole lot (probably due to employment). In short, there is no doubt in my mind that people want to live in NJ.
So why the talk about mass exoduses, especially on this site? Because the cost of living is out of control. Once again, I blame this on low housing stock. People want to be here, but housing is too expensive, so they leave, for areas with lower property values and lower taxes. If New Jersey actually allowed new affordable housing to be built, maybe this would not happen. California has this exact problem on steroids. Vast swaths of single family homes and exclusionary zoning hurting the working class, forcing them further into the exurbs. If we allowed duplexes to be built on single family lots, and if we encouraged building townhouses and apartments over McMansions then maybe we wouldn't have this problem. But NIMBYism is powerful.
2. Does it have a future?
NJ consistently ranks at the top for education and healthcare. So long as New York City is relevant, New Jersey will be too. It is one of the most economically prosperous states per capita. I know we hold states like Texas and Florida in high regard for the comparative low cost of living and positive economic prospects, but both of these states are in major growth mode. Both states are famous for having no income tax, but I think that this is untenable for the future, so long as Texas and Florida keep attracting professionals. Costs of infrastructure, local government, and especially education will all skyrocket; these things are expensive everywhere. Needless to say, both Texas and Florida are among the worst states in terms of budget shortfalls for 2020. But both Texas and Florida will surely recover.
That is to say that we all can cherry pick positives and negatives from any state. I just caution those who are attracted to the allure of low taxes. More people=more amenities=more taxes.
3. Is it even that humid during summer?
Idk, it's hot enough for me. It's certainly not comparable to Florida in the summer, but I would guess NJ is similar to Illinois.
I will just say that NJ, like CA and NY, has a high cost of living, and if you are not a professional, it will be very tough to thrive. I feel so fortunate to buy a home when I did, because I don't think my wife and I would be able to afford our house today, had we decided to wait. This high cost of living is attributable to problems that arise from a state that is no longer in rapid growth mode. There are not enough places to build new homes, and the few homes that are built are too often McMansions that have a good ROI for builders. NIMBYism is preventing affordable housing from being built, juicing up demand further. In Texas and Florida, a new subdivision goes up every day. Of course, if we did build more affordable housing, property values might fall, and property taxes might rise (more kids in school). These problems will come for other states eventually. There is no easy solution.
So why the talk about mass exoduses, especially on this site? Because the cost of living is out of control. Once again, I blame this on low housing stock. People want to be here, but housing is too expensive, so they leave, for areas with lower property values and lower taxes.
100% right! The Mt. Laurel doctrine has absolutely destroyed the housing stock of North Jersey. New townhouses are being built all over as it can comply with the doctrine but this doctrine is why single family homes are not being developed anymore. As a result there is a low inventory and homes are very expensive. The ruling really needs to be taken to the Supreme Court to be overturned.
100% right! The Mt. Laurel doctrine has absolutely destroyed the housing stock of North Jersey. New townhouses are being built all over as it can comply with the doctrine but this doctrine is why single family homes are not being developed anymore. As a result there is a low inventory and homes are very expensive. The ruling really needs to be taken to the Supreme Court to be overturned.
Fascinating. I know conservatives dislike Mount Laurel (and I understand why), but if anything, an affordable housing requirement actually helps the situation. You overstate how much affordable housing is being built. But absent Mount Laurel, builders would not build houses for the middle class. As I said before, the only way to profit is to build as big a house as the zoning rules allow. I'd argue that the real problem is a failure to implement COAH/Mount Laurel doctrine. I live in Wayne, and we're currently getting hammered in Mount Laurel litigation. It didn't have to be this way; our town procrastinated on its affordable housing requirements for 20 years. Yes, the COAH ruling in 2015 is insane as it applies to Wayne's requirements, but our town's government (all Republicans) dug that hole for themselves.
Mount Laurel Doctrine is, in short, a bad way to fix a real problem. But what's your alternative? More segregation, in a state that is already VERY segregated?
Last edited by midnight_thunder; 03-02-2021 at 03:10 PM..
Reason: Added rebuttal to argument I initially glossed over.
100% right! The Mt. Laurel doctrine has absolutely destroyed the housing stock of North Jersey. New townhouses are being built all over as it can comply with the doctrine but this doctrine is why single family homes are not being developed anymore. As a result there is a low inventory and homes are very expensive. The ruling really needs to be taken to the Supreme Court to be overturned.
Once you get as far south as Howell, single family homes are reasonably priced (resales...minimum lot size for new construction is 3 acres), in the $300-$400K range with property taxes in the $6K to $8K range. The closer you get to NYC, the higher house prices are. This has been the case for several decades. You can add $200K going 15 minutes north from Howell to Freehold. A friend's son bought a 1 bedroom apartment in Hoboken a few years ago, with an easy commute to NYC, for more than $800K.
If you like repression, regression, and Liberal Loonie Lands a la Massachusetts, you will be as happy as a pig in filth in NJ.
NJ is sometimes referred to as Mass Lite (in reference to MA.)
Interesting, I've never heard it referred as that, and I've lived in both states. There are some similarities being small, relatively dense & wealthy states in the northeast though. Both rate pretty high on quality of life metrics in almost any list that you see. I tend to think that MA is a bit better managed than NJ, and the economy there has outperformed most other northeast states, but that's probably splitting hairs.
People leave both places for two primary reasons though: cost and weather. Can't change the weather, and densely populated states adjacent to big cities with knowledge-based economies are expensive. Is what it is. Some people vote with their feet and that's fine.
Mount Laurel Doctrine is, in short, a bad way to fix a real problem. But what's your alternative? More segregation, in a state that is already VERY segregated?
Its results are actually having the opposite effect of what its intending to do. Take out the red tape and let the markets work as they should. There arent housing shortages in other states, but when the Government got it involved it screwed it all up and homes in North Jersey are probably 20, 30% more than should be as a result.
My great uncle was the one who got sued for the Mt. Laurel doctrine and fought it up to the NJ Supreme Court and wanted to bring it up to the Federal Courts but passed away (probably a result of this). He wanted to develop a couple hundred middle income to larger homes in the area on the land he owned much of which he accumulated from the 1940s-70s. Much of the land has been sold now and some retirement homes were built along Church rd. and some small buildings and a school built in its place but now a couple hundred less houses are in Mt. Laurel as a result.
Thanks for all the replies everyone. There's a lot to respond to, but instead I'll ask a few more questions based on what I've read.
1. Is there any hope that NJ will improve/get more affordable housing/less corrupt, etc. anything at all?
2. People say it's good if you're a democrat but what if I'm an indepedent? I don't really agree with either side completely, I just kind of vote for who I agree with more or who I think is less awful. However, I don't think I can get along well with the ultra political far-left people. I hope NJ isn't like that.
3. What's better between Hoboken and Jersey City? I like walkable towns but I've only been to Hoboken once during the day. It was amazing but I've seen people say that it's often filled with drunk college people so that's a bit discouraging. I haven't been to Jersey City so I can't say what it's like.
Interesting, I've never heard it referred as that, and I've lived in both states. There are some similarities being small, relatively dense & wealthy states in the northeast though. Both rate pretty high on quality of life metrics in almost any list that you see. I tend to think that MA is a bit better managed than NJ, and the economy there has outperformed most other northeast states, but that's probably splitting hairs.
People leave both places for two primary reasons though: cost and weather. Can't change the weather, and densely populated states adjacent to big cities with knowledge-based economies are expensive. Is what it is. Some people vote with their feet and that's fine.
It must be the lens you look at it through. I of course have lived in it as well.
101.5 is probably where I heard Mass Lite although it may not have been.. It is when we almost adopted the MassHealth style catastrophe of a law, with the unconstitutional mandate.
Quincy is a fine town.
I have left, multiple times.. and if Ohio wasn't a scam, id be there right now.
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