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Oh, the education system should be run exactly like the private sector. Private schools operate like the private sector and do a flat out better job than public schools.
Before you say that, have you ever been a student of a private school?
But I heard that 95% of Jersey's public schools are failing. Maybe it's not the teachers fault. Maybe the students are that dumb. Then again, most of these kids know more about how to operate a cell phone or the latest music out than their damn time tables and english. Who's fault is that? It's not the teachers fault if the kids fail. Blame it on the kids.
Last edited by angerinthenation; 01-15-2010 at 09:24 PM..
You probably don't know how to determine whether an investment banker or programmer, or whatever is good at what they do -- it takes substantial qualifications to evaluate these employees. That doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be done.
I find laughable the notion that teaching is uniquely difficult to appraise. It seems far more plausible to me that the unions negotiated sweet deals.
We're not talking about bankers or programmers here.......please stay on topic.....the question posed....which you avoided....is what is your basis that you determine a bad teacher that needs to be fired ?
You all want to treat teachers and other public employees like private sector employees? Fine. Pay them the same salaries that people in the private sector with comparable levels of education and experience get. Yes, the gap has narrowed over the past 25 years, but we ain't there yet. Also, ensure that all districts/departments have human resource departments that meet the needs of all employees, and not just those of administrators/directors, as is usually currently the case.
Merit pay? Fine. Make sure every public school in the state has a student population that is nearly equally diverse racially, socioeconomically, religiously, in terms of IQ, etc. Poof! The Camden and Paterson school districts are gone. Oh, wait. The Ridgewood and Livingston school districts are gone too. Every school district is... I don't know, maybe Woodbridge? Oh, and how is the evaluation system going to be checked for fairness and balance? And by whom?
By someone who is hired to do just this by the state. Sort of like a "casino control commission" for schools. They would design the objective standards and implement the evaluations using a mix of test scores and more importantly observation using random video capture. A teacher would never know if or when he was being evaluated, or by whom. A good teacher wouldn't care. But a bad teacher would.
The question of effectiveness is NOT THAT HARD to answer. Private schools manage to do it, keep high standards, no fuss, no muss. The teacher's lobby makes sure we all think it's an impossible task. But it is not. In fact the evaluation of teachers should take place outside of union control and outside of school district control.
First......all teachers get "peer reviews" each year performed by the principal. However,.....its your opinion that you can tell if a teacher is good or bad from watching a video ?
Yes, that is exactly my contention. Observation by the appropriately trained professional is an excellent tool. In combination with the appropriate metrics (test score improvement over time). And it should not be done by the principal, or the school district, or the union. We need objective measurements. The best solution would be an outside entity either from the state itself or a subcontractor.
Oh, the education system should be run exactly like the private sector. Private schools operate like the private sector and do a flat out better job than public schools.
No doubt....why do you think that might be ? Perhaps because private schools get to pick and choose the students they want. Wouldn't it be nice of public schools could do that.....weed out all the trouble makers....all the students with lower IQs......all the students who have some type of learning problem or disability or handicap or emotional pproblem.....all the students from low income families and come to school hungary.......all the students whose parents just don't care.....all the students who parents are either on crack or in jail.....the list of problems that private schools don't have to contend with is endless....unfortunately public schools can't turn these students away and have to have an education plan for each one of these students and each of their problems and the teacher has to contend with 20 different problems in the classrooms while if a student is a problem in a private school they are expelled. Its absurd to expect a public school to produce the same results as a private school.
Before you say that, have you ever been a student of a private school?
No, but that is irrelevant to judging the current state of disrepair in the education establishment, which is self-evident to even the most casual observer.
Yes, that is exactly my contention. Observation by the appropriately trained professional is an excellent tool. In combination with the appropriate metrics (test score improvement over time). And it should not be done by the principal, or the school district, or the union. We need objective measurements. The best solution would be an outside entity either from the state itself or a subcontractor.
So......despite the fact that taxpayers in every town are complaining about the cost of education you propose to spend more to have teachers "observed" by private contractors who have no experience with the specific problems of that teacher.....you really think a sub-contractor or someone from state can step into an evaluation situation not being familiar with the specific problems, personalities and IQs of the 20 different students in the classroom that teacher is trying to reach ? A stranger can evaluate better than the principal who is personally aware of all the problems I mentioned ? I think not.
As far as making any determinations by test score your clueless....my daughter is a teacher in a low income area in Florida and is teacher of the year this year....some of her students are on medication to keep the focused....that is when the parents don't sell the medication or take it for themselves....one poor child feels like ants are crawling over him when he doesn't get his medication and can't focus....many days he comes to school not having had his medication so any tests taken on those days are just worthless......others just have extremely low IQs and will never show much improvement.......that doesn't include the 8 inclusion students she has that all have learning disabilities of one sort or another......the testing your talking about is absolutely worthless as any type of measure of a teachers ability.
Last edited by FlyersFan; 01-15-2010 at 09:38 PM..
No doubt....why do you think that might be ? Perhaps because private schools get to pick and choose the students they want. Wouldn't it be nice of public schools could do that.....weed out all the trouble makers....all the students with lower IQs......all the students who have some type of learning problem or disability or handicap or emotional pproblem.....all the students from low income families and come to school hungary.......all the students whose parents just don't care.....all the students who parents are either on crack or in jail.....the list of problems that private schools don't have to contend with is endless....unfortunately public schools can't turn these students away and have to have an education plan for each one of these students and each of their problems and the teacher has to contend with 20 different problems in the classrooms while if a student is a problem in a private school they are expelled. Its absurd to expect a public school to produce the same results as a private school.
I do not expect public schools to produce the same results as private schools. I expect teachers in public schools to be subject to the same measures of job performance that everyone else in the world is. And I expect teachers to give up tenure, as it is a tool of enshrinement of the obsolete, the ineffective, and the incompetent.
teachers being overpaid = lulz
The average starting salary for a teacher in NJ is what 40K. Hardly comparable to what their private sector counterparts that have comparable BA or Masters degrees.
Instead of blaming teachers for low testing students...blame the parents that cant give their kid a good hour of homework supervision and substitute funtional learning porgrams with video games and TV. None of the state financial crisis is due to the NJEA, it's due to the crap Whitman started over a decade ago by borrowing and borrowing from state pension plans etc. Spread your worthless hate propoganda with state politicians that hold 3 offices with 3 different pensions and 3 different paychecks. The financial overlap due to town zoning and political offices in this state is teh biggest joke.
Oh and FWIW, if NJs teachers were so bad, why is NJ's graduation rate of 82.1% the highest in the nation. Surely union teachers have nothing to do with this. go sell some houses. Want to talk about a grossly overpaid profession. Lets sell 500k holmes and hook up the buyer with fly by night mortgage brokers.
get a clue Marc, because it's obvious your head is so far up your know what. The average starting salary for a teacher in NJ is what 40K. Hardly comparable to what their private sector counterparts that have comparable BA or Masters degrees.
Instead of blaming teachers for low testing students...blame the parents that cant give their kid a good hour of homework supervision and substitute funtional learning porgrams with video games and TV. None of the state financial crisis is due to the NJEA, it's due to the crap Whitman started over a decade ago by borrowing and borrowing from state pension plans etc. Spread your worthless hate propoganda with state politicians that hold 3 offices with 3 different pensions and 3 different paychecks. The financial overlap due to town zoning and political offices in this state is teh biggest joke.
Oh and FWIW, if NJs teachers were so bad, why is NJ's graduation rate of 82.1% the highest in the nation. Surely union teachers have nothing to do with this. Keep wearing your tinfoil hat Marc
Where did I ever say NJ teachers were bad? Find it. I didn't say it. I said tenure is bad and needs to be ended. I said teachers need to be measured like everyone else. Oh and bad parents don't get a free pass at all, they are hugely responsible for the whole mess of bad schools. Namely, single parent households. Single parent households are responsible for so many problems I can't even begin, it would never end.
OK, I have to get back to work. I'm exhausted already. Thread self-locked.
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