A few questions for Teachers and Counselors (good schools, best)

[Native NM 4040]

I grow tired of your statistics. I was hoping you would choose to say nothing. You're standing up on some self appointed pedestal spouting off about something you think you know something about yet very obviously do not.

You evidentally do not like New Mexico very much. Are you actually trapped in New Mexico? Well, if you are please tell us where so we can help you get out. If its a ransom or money problem, tells us, so we can get together with some of our other overpaid underworked teacher friends and we will take up a collection to help you out.

And for goodness sakes, why are you educating your children here? If the rest of the country is so much better and their educational systems are so superior to ours then by all means please move there. We don't want you here. Save the money you are sending to the Academy and move to where the public education system is unflawed.

But I don't want to get off track and emotional as you put it lets look at some things
1. I am a card carrying Republican. I am so far right I walk with a limp!

2. I like and support George Bush. That does not mean I think that ridiculous piece of legislation "No Child Left Behind" is very good.

NCLB at its base is good hearted. I mean who doesn't want to see every child succeed. In a perfect world I would have a classroom full of two parented, fully rested, sufficiently fed, little learning machines. But I don't. It kills me but I don't have perfect kids. Few teachers do have perfect kids with the exceptions of certain private schools that won't let in the learning disabled or behaviorally challenged...ahem....The Academy. (Maybe thats how they do it). So really and truly one of the most saddening things a young teacher must discover and deal with is you cannot get to them all. Some no matter how hard you push, no matter how hard you try, no matter how many tears you cry about that one kid, he or she is going to fail. Mom and Dad don't care or maybe aren't even around. But NCLB won't acknowledge that. It won't see that human beings are fallible. But don't get me wrong even though we know some will eventually fail I don't know a single teacher that doesn't still try with each and every one.

So basically the very fact that you bring up NCLB, which will probably be totally overhauled or scrapped altogether by the next administration, shows you have no idea what your talking about. You read some article in some publication and now you're an expert, well no you're not.

3. Sorry I meant to say teach THEM ALL. Teacher is of course is a noun. Petty very petty!

4. We no longer use grades so my kids can come in any time and say grades, grades, grades!

5. You love to put words in my mouth. How can you possibly equate a patient healing themselves to holding a child and their parents accountable for their academic progress. Who else is accountable for a students poor performance if they don't study or do their homework, and if they miss 15 days of school a semester. If the parents and students are not actively involved in the learning process I can teach till the cows come home and it won't matter.

6. Those other countries you speak of, do some reading, they like other professions don't teach everybody. If you're a problem in the class you're gone. Do you want that?

7. I am not a member of the union. Too liberal for me. They, like you are what I like to call Shakespearean. They are "a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." That sums you up.

8. Ah the pay per hour thing, Again I love when mindless people start yakking about how teachers have all this time off and how can we complain, we only work six and a half hours a day. I want to vomit every time I hear it. Yes I only work six and a half hours a day, at that job. I then put in at least an hour a night grading papers, then I go to my other job that I have to have because teaching doesn't pay the bills. But again don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I chose this profession, I wasn't forced.

9. Accountability is a farce. Please sir, we live in a society that when someone drives drunk and kills another person, we blame the bar that served him the alcohol. If that isn't evidence enough on how far we've strayed from the course, I don't know what is. We rarely lay blame at the feat of those who are guilty, as a society we pass the buck as though it were on fire. My fault is no longer a recognizable phrase in the english language.

You my dear man, want to hide behind your ever important statistics or "facts" as you call them and say they tell the whole story. I have no hurt feelings. I became a teacher after growing up in a household with two teachers. I knew what I was getting into. I love my job! I do it because there has never been anything else I wanted to do. My parents warned me people like you would be out there, full of all the answers even though you don't even know the questions.

And finally lets look at something you said that I earlier missed.

Originally Posted by trappedinNM

Are there good schools? Sure - if you can afford to live in the right area. But those successes can only be construed as parental success stories, as each school is funded equally.

So if I am hearing you right, if schools are bad its the teachers' fault, yet if they are good it is because of the parents. Am I right or is that what you have said. Boy you're tough, teachers can't win for loosing. Except for the fact I am calling you on it. Which is it? "You, up there on your pedastal, you can't have it both ways!" You can't blame us for all thats wrong then take all the credit for any successes. This shows how crazy your thinking really is. You believe your above us. Big Hart Shaffner Marx suit wearing know it all. You would fix all the problems if you were in charge wouldn't you.

In closing, (boy this was long), I need no longer to hear from people that complain about things they admittedly know nothing about. My grandfather used to say "If you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem." You sir are not part of the solution.

[trappedinNM]

It still amazes me the number of people with the “if you don’t like it get out” mentality. Every citizen has a responsibility to try and better the community. We love many things about NM. The education system is not one of them. While my children no longer attend APS, they did. I know first-hand about APS. As I noted, my wife teaches for APS. She at least admits that she [as part of a collective enterprise] has failed.

When I am not at my regular job, I run our business. Like many business owners, I struggle with finding qualified employees. I have interviewed 18 year-old adults who are functionally illiterate and cannot perform basic math. These are APS graduates. Perhaps if somebody had graded them, they would have been held accountable, but then we might hurt their feelings.

Several years ago we tested applicants before hiring them. My wife created a test that was consistent with a 10th grade curriculum. While I know you hate statistics, more than half failed the test. As an “absentee owner”, I rely on qualified managers and employees, and can assure you that they are difficult to find. The implications of APS’s failure stretch well beyond my own problems. They affect the very foundation of NM, and to a lesser extent the future of the country. The US is increasingly losing ground to other nations. APS churns out many students incapable of the basics, let alone critical thinking skills. The sheer number of UNM students that require remedial courses is an indicator of how bad APS performs.

We both stand on pedestals espousing two different viewpoints. I am of the belief that APS is a failure; it has failed in its mission to educate its children. You stand on your pedestal defending those who were hired to educate its children, despite the overwhelming evidence of their collective failure. Since it is foolish to bring logic and fact to a debate when the other side brings emotion, I will not waste anymore or your time. You sound intelligent, and are certainly passionate about what you do. For that I laud you. I am sure your students are lucky. Because you are intelligent, perhaps a fully licensed Tier III teacher, you might assume that your fellow educators are similar. You refuse to take a big picture view of the problem and recognize how bad it really is. That is why you fail.

Since we are quoting grandfathers, mine once asked me “is Harvard a great school because it has great curriculum and great instructors, or is Harvard a great school because it attracts great students?” Think about it.

Peace.

[Native NM 4040]

You never answered my question though. You accuse me of sidestepping the issues, yet it is now you who goes mum on the matter at hand. So I want to know which way is it. You seem to blame a school's deterioration on the teaching staff, yet want to give all the accolades to the parents when a school is successful. You can't have it both ways. If I understand you you seem to be saying that teachers only mess up, that if we succeed it must be a fluke caused by some outside source. "How could these fools ever get things correct!", is that what you are saying? I think it is. You hide behind some ridiculous fact vs emotion argument. Where are your facts now?

That only takes me back to my point. Accountablility is a farce. Made so by people like yourself who take no part in any blame, yet are first in line to bask in the sunshine of success. That sir is why I consider you to be a major part of the problem we as teacher's face. You say its every citizens responsibility to improve the community, well you're not helping. I will never sit here and say that every teacher is a good teacher. Like any profession there are people in education that have no business being there. But to lump 60% together and say they are no good is as cockamamie an idea as I have ever heard. Are you then saying every parent is good.

What I said in the beginning is what I still know to be true. Until accountablity is evenly spread to include not only students but their parents as well, we will be unable to fix whats wrong in our schools. Teachers should share in the blame when a school is underachieving but should not shoulder it completely.

As to your quote, think about this....When was the last time Harvard let in a student with learning disabilities and moderate behavioral problems. Me, I do it everyday. Its easy to teach when your students are there to learn and have nothing else on their minds. Then again where's the challenge in that?

[droys]

Kudo's to you Native NM. Unless someone walks in your shoes and sees the whole picture they will never understand anything but meaningless stats.

I work in an Exemplary School District in Texas. We hold that status because just as you stated, our parents and community are involved with our students. Our teachers work very hard not with just the students but with any willing parent. And that is all done after work hours. Our parents range from high, middle and low income groups.

We have our problems as well as any other school district in the country. There is so much more that goes on than the general public knows. They cry for better education but complain about the taxes they have to pay. Our states require more and more rules, regulations that they do not fund.

You are apperciated from those that really know what the stats should reveal.

[trappedinNM]

Since you wish to continue the debate, I will oblige you.

I think the teachers are to blame in most cases. Really good teachers are the exception, not the rule. When my kids were at APS, I asked the Principal for a list of which teachers were certified and/or accredited. I was told it was not public information. I still have an open question in the forum - "what percentage of APS teachers are not certified".

APS historically hired teachers that were not equipped to handle the types of problem children you describe. If you have read the "Bell Curve" you understand that all children fall within a classic bell curve with respect to cognitive ability. Regardless of socio-economic conditions, children are born with an inherent cognitive ability. A gifted child born into a poor family is just as smart as a gifted child born into a wealthy family. Environment plays a crucial role, but not even Bill Gates could make a child born with a low IQ any smarter.

Teachers are the first-line of defense in recognizing the ability of a child's cognitive ability. Parents have little to compare their children to, other than perhaps their other children. A good teacher, on the other hand, has worked with hundreds of kids, and recognizes where each child falls within the curve. He or she then adjusts to the needs of each child. It is a tough job.

Many teachers actually spend more time with a student than the parents do, but will still claim that it is the parent's fault that they fail. NM mandates all-day kindergarten, and is talking about mandatory summer school. They even have head-start programs that begin in pre-school. In 10 years, when parents simply hand their kids over at birth, I hope the school system has a better excuse than "its the parents fault".

Recognize this: the school drives what is taught, how it is taught, the teaching style, and methodology. The state has brainwashed the public to believe that they are incapable of educating their own children. They have created an environment whereby parents who may not know better assume that the school is handling everything. Then, when things go bad, the parent's become the scapegoat.

As many of my wife's friends are teachers, I am privy to their comments: "They don't pay me enough to do that." "It is easier to just pass him and let somebody else worry about him." "Its not worth it to fail him because then I have to justify it and that is a lot of paperwork." I am sure you have heard and experienced similar sentiment. These are failures of the teachers. Every profession has its diffiiculties. What differentiates teachers from other professions is that the evidence of their failure is spread over 18 years rather than a short period of time as in most professions. If a laywer lost every case in a year, eventually nobody would hire him. If a CPA prepared half his tax returns incorrectly, he would end up fired within a year. Because each teacher only has a child for 1/18th of their education, their accountablity is diluted. When a kids leaves high school functionally illiterate, which one teacher is to blame? In my book, it is all of them! It is too easy for them to pass-off the hard kids. They do this because in many cases they are simply not prepared to tackle the difficult challenge of being a teacher. That is the hard reality. If every teacher took the approach that no child was going to leave his classroom unless he met grade-standards, think how better off we would be. I can assure you of one outcome - when parents learn that their child is not going to be passed through the system, they might just step up to the plate a little more. Another outcome will be that school districts will be forced to hire the most competent teachers possible to ensure that thousands of kids are not failed.

To further expand my position, I cast blame on the system as a whole. I believe that we spend too much on administration, and not enough in the classroom. There is a direct correlation between the admin / teacher expense ratio and student's scores. That is one statistic even you can appreciate. To clarify, those districts that spend a higher percentage of the total budget on teachers do better than those districts that do not. APS ranks low in that regard. The administrative ranks of APS are bloated, while unqualified teachers attempt to deal with children that are statistically poorer than the national average, deal with languate barriers, and a host of other issues that complicate the learning process.

To answer an earlier question, I would have no problem if the US adopted policies similar to Japan or Germany. In those countries, students must test their way into secondary school.

We can continue this debate as long as you would like...I have a whole bag ot statistics and hard facts at my disposal.



Peace.

[Native NM 4040]

You still haven't answered my question about who is ultimately responsible for the downfall or success of a school. Answer my question. Don't sashay around it with your bag of useless statistics. Are you afraid that your answer may expose you as the elitist that you are? Standing above everyone exposing what is wrong but remaining unwilling to help as you might stain yourself with the realization that your absurd beliefs are shallow and flawed.

You speak of the educational system needing to hire better more qualified teachers. Maybe so. One way to do that would be to pay competitive wages. I have a masters degree, my friend has a masters in business and makes 4 times my salary. Not a great advertising slogan to entice bright young people into the field. "Come teach, maybe your spouse can make that house payment". I will agree with you on one point. APS is ridiculously top heavy with administrators. Maybe we could get rid of some of them and they might be able to pull the wages off the US cellar floor.

I will end with this. I started this debate because I am sick and tired of people badmouthing teachers and schools. I want but one thing, before you pass judgement come walk in my shoes. You're an absentee business owner you have the time. Come be a teacher, heck be a educational assistant. See for yourself what we deal with on a daily basis. Only then will you finally have a real understanding for the educational system. Until then you are just like all the politicians and Phd's that seem to think they have all the answers because they read some statistics or were once in a classroom for 10 minutes. I tell you I see it everyday those parents that come into the schools to volunteer and leave wide eyed. "How do you do it?", they ask. Well I do it because even though people like you will look for faults in everything I try to find the good, in every single kid.

[trappedinNM]

I think you need to go back and read the first sentence of my last post. I believe it answers the question.

Peace.

[Native NM 4040]

Originally Posted by trappedinNM

I think you need to go back and read the first sentence of my last post. I believe it answers the question.

Peace.

Well you believe wrong, my question was very specific as to your earlier posts. Let me state it again. Whose ultimately responsible for the downfall OR THE SUCCESS of a school?

Originally Posted by trappedinNM

I think the teachers are to blame in most cases. Really good teachers are the exception, not the rule.

You answer only whose to blame when things go wrong.

Originally Posted by trappedinNM

Are there good schools? Sure - if you can afford to live in the right area. But those successes can only be construed as parental success stories, as each school is funded equally

That is your quote above. You blame teachers for bad schools yet give credit to the parents in good schools. You don't see a connection? I hate to tell you but the teachers in those good schools are no different than in the bad schools . The difference lies with the parents. Parents make all the difference. You want to look up a stat? Look for a stat that connects how a school performs to the size of its PTA. I guarantee theres a connection. Larger PTA's mean more parent involvement which in turn means better performance. Small PTA low parent involvement, that school is going to struggle. The teachers are the same no matter where you go. My school, huge PTA, our parents are involved so our school performs well. Thats the bottom line no matter what you want to think.

[Native NM 4040]

Your silence speaks volumes. Your facts can't help you so you tiptoe around or refuse to answer at all. Your political tendencies are noted, you are now ready for the campaign trail. Hillary and Obama would be proud!

[droys]

Good for you Native NM, maybe you finally got your point across. And your right, I am sure Hillary/Obama would welcome him aboard. LOL