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When I moved in, everyone was paying the same maintenance rate based on their apartment line and the floor. The building was neglected and in really bad shape. My maintenance started at $600 a month and jumped to $760 over three years due to this increase. But the entire building was renovated. New windows and terraces for everyone. The brick was refaced. New roof, boiler, laundry room AND all new plumbing for every apartment. Workers broke through our walls and removed the asbestos and replaced every pipe in both the kitchen and bathroom. It was a huge inconvenience but worth it in the long run. They are still working on renovating the hallways and lobby.
The good part about the increase though is that they did away with surcharges if you exceed the income level and they are no longer charging an additional fee per air conditioner unit.
I have to say, I take offense to people calling me naive or out of touch with reality. Here's why:
Right now, there are three Mitchell Lamas with short waitlists which you could move into, in 6 months or less: https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downl...ting-Lists.pdf. For people who need affordable housing right now, these are some options. This list is continually updated. Granted, they are not in Chelsea, but not everyone absolutely has to live in Chelsea--in fact, MOST New Yorkers live outside of Manhattan altogether--myself, a native New Yorker, included. It is a spoiled take to demand to live in Manhattan.
Now, let's talk about the "practically market rate" comment. I stand by what I said. Here is a newly renovated studio in Riverdale for $1,500: https://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/a...1.html?lang=it. Is it Chelsea? Nope. Do you have to live in Chelsea? Nope. I also found a (basement) one bedroom in Whitestone for $1,200, a one bedroom in Richmond Hill for $1,600, a studio in Bayside for $1,500 and then I stopped looking after the first page. For people who don't have the $25,000+ to cobble together, these options are a better choice than Penn South at least in the here and now. Gentle reminder that at the lowest income level for Penn South, which is $21,648, it is nigh impossible to cobble together a $25,000 down payment even in the five years it takes to be on hold. This necessitates a mortgage which can basically cause your carrying charges to be as much as a private market rental in some cases. It's the down payment that is a huuuuge hurdle for so many.
Onto the next reason why Penn South isn't worth it to some people: if you compare apples to apples (e.g. other Mitchell Lamas or Mitchell Lama-like developments), you try and find me one that has a $100,000+ buy in for the smallest apartment size/family composition available. I'll wait. It's simply too expensive when compared with other options. If you are given the choice between Penn South and another similar development in a similarly desirable area which has a lower buy in, it's a no brainer to me to choose the other one. But everyone has the right to their own opinion.
P.S. My saying "choose another Mitchell Lama" is assuming you are on the waitlist for another development, not that you can just snap your fingers and get in. Obviously.
I think it's extremely prudent to ask questions when making a monumental financial decision. It is helpful to consider the buy-in costs, resell costs, projected increases, repair and upgrade costs, etc .
I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't take it as a personal attack on Penn South that needs defending.
If when I am called for any lottery, I want to be informed as much as possible. I'm still hoping to get on other lists and I appreciate when people posts here about openings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontworryboutathing
I have to say, I take offense to people calling me naive or out of touch with reality. Here's why:
There are many hypotheticals in your post. I have no concrete answers for your questions. Stop reading here if you wish.
The desire after three years to upgrade to a 1 bed does not mean that such an opportunity would be available. Based on posts on various PS threads it’s possible the wait would be much longer. As I recall, there is minimal residency requirement of some years just to join the waitlist to change units. We can assume such an existing waitlist for larger units is long.
If you are in the moment of facing a decision to buy or not a PS studio you have to discount the possibility to upgrading to a 1 bed as something you cannot control. It’s unknown when such an opportunity might happen. The wait time is beyond your control. The quality of the first 1 bed offer is something you can’t control, it might be exactly what you want or more, or you might hate it. Interest rates when a 1 bed becomes available are unknown. Saving for 1 bed is something you can control. If living in a studio will save you money each month that is something to weigh.
The condition of the studio, and of the 1 bed might not require repairs and appliances. When the studio is left for the 1 bed it in might not require any repairs. Some persons might need bridge loan to upgrade to a 1 bed but other persons might finance it without one.
Typically, you can lose some or all of a downpayment if you back out of deal that is already under progress. I will assume that PS is similar.
The scenario you posted about suggests a completed deal, the purchase has been made. Selling the studio after the purchase would seem to be an entirely new deal. (Is there a minimum occupancy period required before selling the studio?) Once the studio has been purchased by another party it’s my guess they can’t subtract an amount equal to the downpayment you made in the first place. They might be able to subtract amounts of money for damage to unit or breach of rules, I suppose.
My question was based on a hypothetical situation because the numbers were simple. I am not on the studio list. My daughter is on the 2023 one bedroom list. People on this board are always saying that you can upgrade to a larger unit after three years. I understand that it might take longer than three years. I'd really like to hear from someone who has firsthand knowledge of the repair costs when you leave an apartment. Can the repair costs vary? A poster recently said that after living in a studio for 10 years, a shareholder can expect a $30k-$40k repair bill. That's a lot of money to lose and then if you upgrade to a larger apartment, you can lose that much again if you ultimately decide to move out of PS.
I have to say, I take offense to people calling me naive or out of touch with reality. Here's why:
Right now, there are three Mitchell Lamas with short waitlists which you could move into, in 6 months or less: https://www.nyc.gov/assets/hpd/downl...ting-Lists.pdf. For people who need affordable housing right now, these are some options. This list is continually updated. Granted, they are not in Chelsea, but not everyone absolutely has to live in Chelsea--in fact, MOST New Yorkers live outside of Manhattan altogether--myself, a native New Yorker, included. It is a spoiled take to demand to live in Manhattan.
Now, let's talk about the "practically market rate" comment. I stand by what I said. Here is a newly renovated studio in Riverdale for $1,500: https://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/a...1.html?lang=it. Is it Chelsea? Nope. Do you have to live in Chelsea? Nope. I also found a (basement) one bedroom in Whitestone for $1,200, a one bedroom in Richmond Hill for $1,600, a studio in Bayside for $1,500 and then I stopped looking after the first page. For people who don't have the $25,000+ to cobble together, these options are a better choice than Penn South at least in the here and now. Gentle reminder that at the lowest income level for Penn South, which is $21,648, it is nigh impossible to cobble together a $25,000 down payment even in the five years it takes to be on hold. This necessitates a mortgage which can basically cause your carrying charges to be as much as a private market rental in some cases. It's the down payment that is a huuuuge hurdle for so many.
Onto the next reason why Penn South isn't worth it to some people: if you compare apples to apples (e.g. other Mitchell Lamas or Mitchell Lama-like developments), you try and find me one that has a $100,000+ buy in for the smallest apartment size/family composition available. I'll wait. It's simply too expensive when compared with other options. If you are given the choice between Penn South and another similar development in a similarly desirable area which has a lower buy in, it's a no brainer to me to choose the other one. But everyone has the right to their own opinion.
P.S. My saying "choose another Mitchell Lama" is assuming you are on the waitlist for another development, not that you can just snap your fingers and get in. Obviously.
You’re still making an apples to orange comparison with this. Your highlighted initial example - the Riverdale studio. For many people, that would put them in a 2-fare zone(a quality of life deterrent for many and something people in a Manhattan ML or Penn South would face)/ the kind of region where having a car is often a necessity. Additionally, that kind of unit can be a hurdle for anyone longterm the- landlord can increase the rent whenever they feel like. (Co-op/condos have transparency on why maintenance/carrying fees are increasing).
Down payments for any purchase (private, subsidized) are a barrier for many - that’s not unique to the Penn south model. There are HPD units with $500k priced tags with Ami income restrictions that don’t align.
Penn South may not be worth it to plenty people - but it’s a kind of moot statement to make when it’s not common for people to be in a position to have the opportunity to be able to choose between multiple of these subsidized options.
I wonder how they recoup/collect the repair costs from people who bought in at earlier much lower prices (like original buyers, successor owners et al) ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontworryboutathing
...If your initial investment was $100,000 and you've lived in your place for 10+ years, be prepared to lose $30,000-$40,000 of that. I'm not joking.
I know of multiple people being charged for 60+ hours' worth of work to plaster and paint a STUDIO apartment in Penn South, lol. Draw your own conclusions from that...
Location: Read the Marketing Handbook, and Income a Guide.
2,007 posts, read 1,626,371 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigermoon
My question was based on a hypothetical situation because the numbers were simple. I am not on the studio list. My daughter is on the 2023 one bedroom list. People on this board are always saying that you can upgrade to a larger unit after three years. I understand that it might take longer than three years. I'd really like to hear from someone who has firsthand knowledge of the repair costs when you leave an apartment. Can the repair costs vary? A poster recently said that after living in a studio for 10 years, a shareholder can expect a $30k-$40k repair bill. That's a lot of money to lose and then if you upgrade to a larger apartment, you can lose that much again if you ultimately decide to move out of PS.
(I am glad to know your daughter is on the 2023 studio wait list. If it was you that was on the wait list at PS it might not be such an attractive choice if your housing circumstances are already affordable and predictable. PS may still be a good affordable housing choice for many even if costs there are higher than many places. It’s not exempt from increases. It is well insulated against market rate increases.)
Location: Read the Marketing Handbook, and Income a Guide.
2,007 posts, read 1,626,371 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennbrazil
I think it's extremely prudent to ask questions when making a monumental financial decision. It is helpful to consider the buy-in costs, resell costs, projected increases, repair and upgrade costs, etc .
I agree with a lot of what you said. I don't take it as a personal attack on Penn South that needs defending.
If when I am called for any lottery, I want to be informed as much as possible. I'm still hoping to get on other lists and I appreciate when people posts here about openings.
Whatever information and knowledge you gather today is subject to change. Certainly today’s ordinary maintenance fees will rise over the years. Be sure to confirm PS matters in the years ahead as you make progress on the wait list.
Use wait time to save money. PS is particularly expensive, although still desirable. If Mitchell Lama and similar type housing appeals to you then you can learn about M-L rentals, and M-L co-ops and rentals beyond the five boroughs.
Unless you can make an all cash purchase, getting financed for a co-op at PS, or a Mitchell Lama co-op, or limited equity housing, is different from a typical mortgage. Many lenders don’t finance such purchases. Learning about that well ahead of time will serve you well. If you need financing and can’t get it you can’t purchase the co-op.
A person can’t control for all variables. With this type of thing an offer is made it’s typically take it or leave it. Not much to negotiate.
I wonder how they recoup/collect the repair costs from people who bought in at earlier much lower prices (like original buyers, successor owners et al) ?
Someone in my ML showed me the repair bill for her deceased mother's apartment. The bill amounted to $8k. I'm willing to bet that her mother paid a fraction of that when she purchased her shares in the 60s. The worst part of the bill was that they were charging $2k to repair the terrace when the apartment didn't even have a terrace! You have to check everything...
Could have been simple lazy copy & pasting, and not bill padding. Excellent advice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigermoon
Someone in my ML showed me the repair bill for her deceased mother's apartment. The bill amounted to $8k. I'm willing to bet that her mother paid a fraction of that when she purchased her shares in the 60s. The worst part of the bill was that they were charging $2k to repair the terrace when the apartment didn't even have a terrace! You have to check everything...
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