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I have to agree with some of your points. However, I never said the Irish had it easy. Down south, after Blacks, Irish Catholics were the next lynching target of choice for the KKK. Don't forget that during the Civil War, newly arrived Irishmen who had no work or prospect for work, were paid by wealthy or middle class WASPS to take their place as draftees in the Union Army--an Army by the way that freed blacks from oppression and disgusting slavery. In Europe the Irish were commonly refered to as the "N-word" of Europe...so cultural esteem for the Irish race was not what you would say widespread. No Irish need apply was a common sign in business in NY, Boston, Baltimore and most ports on the Atlantic. But please understand, the largely Irish/Italian neighborhood I grew up in in the 1960s was far safer and cleaner than now. The only thing that changed is the population whose race and culture is not Irish/Italian/Jewis, the only varible. Moreover, most of the working parents in that era had no HS diploma, very few college, yet they raised in large a pretty law abiding community and decent place to live. It was the changes in values and civil behavior of the 'new settlers' rather than the color of their skin, language, or appearance. Hilltop has made a lot of good points, and you too. It was not paradise mind you--there were some punks, the drug craze was very much alive (think Needle Park) and of course all the drama of the Vietname era. But in large, it was a good, safe place to live.
I have to agree with some of your points. However, I never said the Irish had it easy. Down south, after Blacks, Irish Catholics were the next lynching target of choice for the KKK. Don't forget that during the Civil War, newly arrived Irishmen who had no work or prospect for work, were paid by wealthy or middle class WASPS to take their place as draftees in the Union Army--an Army by the way that freed blacks from oppression and disgusting slavery. In Europe the Irish were commonly refered to as the "N-word" of Europe...so cultural esteem for the Irish race was not what you would say widespread. No Irish need apply was a common sign in business in NY, Boston, Baltimore and most ports on the Atlantic. But please understand, the largely Irish/Italian neighborhood I grew up in in the 1960s was far safer and cleaner than now. The only thing that changed is the population whose race and culture is not Irish/Italian/Jewis, the only varible. Moreover, most of the working parents in that era had no HS diploma, very few college, yet they raised in large a pretty law abiding community and decent place to live. It was the changes in values and civil behavior of the 'new settlers' rather than the color of their skin, language, or appearance. Hilltop has made a lot of good points, and you too. It was not paradise mind you--there were some punks, the drug craze was very much alive (think Needle Park) and of course all the drama of the Vietname era. But in large, it was a good, safe place to live.
The Irish, being a colonized and abused set of people, came with their own baggage and were prior to WWII little better off than were African Americans.
So I find it laughable when some pretend that the Irish and others were those problem free people and segments trapped in self defeating behaviors only began with the reforms of the 60s. Indeed comparisons of the Irish and the Jews prior to WWII parallel todays comparisons of African Americans with East Asian immigrants.
Please dont tell me that there werent crime among the poor Irish. EVERY poor Irish neighborhood was feared and much has been written comparing their violence and involvement in petty crime especially when compared to the Jews and the Italians, who arrived equally poor and had the disadvantage of not knowing English.
Indeed crime among the Irish was higher than it was among African Americans prior to WWII, even though the latter were even more discriminated against, often used as scab labor against the Irish. hence the riots by Irish immigrants when they assaulted blacks and objected to being recruited into the army during the Civil War.
Indeed the establishment of Catholic charities and the Catholic school system was tied to the notion that these "unruly" Irish mobs needed to be tamed. By the 60s these efforts had succeeded and the Irish became an undifferentiated part of White America.
I have to agree with some of your points. However, I never said the Irish had it easy. Down south, after Blacks, Irish Catholics were the next lynching target of choice for the KKK. Don't forget that during the Civil War, newly arrived Irishmen who had no work or prospect for work, were paid by wealthy or middle class WASPS to take their place as draftees in the Union Army--an Army by the way that freed blacks from oppression and disgusting slavery. In Europe the Irish were commonly refered to as the "N-word" of Europe...so cultural esteem for the Irish race was not what you would say widespread. No Irish need apply was a common sign in business in NY, Boston, Baltimore and most ports on the Atlantic. But please understand, the largely Irish/Italian neighborhood I grew up in in the 1960s was far safer and cleaner than now. The only thing that changed is the population whose race and culture is not Irish/Italian/Jewis, the only varible. Moreover, most of the working parents in that era had no HS diploma, very few college, yet they raised in large a pretty law abiding community and decent place to live. It was the changes in values and civil behavior of the 'new settlers' rather than the color of their skin, language, or appearance. Hilltop has made a lot of good points, and you too. It was not paradise mind you--there were some punks, the drug craze was very much alive (think Needle Park) and of course all the drama of the Vietname era. But in large, it was a good, safe place to live.
I don't get it. Isn't the crime rate of NYC now similar to what it was in the 60s
Sure, the ghettoness in Wakefield is only contained to White Plains Road...sure it is
The only sketchy parts of Wakefield are in fact white plains road, Boston Ed, and edenwald. To say all of Wakefield is ghetto is laughable and trolling. Funniest comment I heard all night. Imma have to take a visit to my friends quite Wakefield neighborhood this Saturday to do some investigations.
I agree with you 100%. But hmmm...I wonder where these Albanian wiggers picked up that type of behavior from? Who are they influenced by? Things that make you go hmmmm?
Not really its a known fact that Albanians come from a corrupted place. A good portion come with a negative mindset as it is. They act gamgster based on media.
Hip hop media is run by white people so their influenced by people like you.
But overall u pretty loose all your points I your going to blame blacks for Albanians acting loud or commuting crimes
The Irish, being a colonized and abused set of people, came with their own baggage and were prior to WWII little better off than were African Americans.
So I find it laughable when some pretend that the Irish and others were those problem free people and segments trapped in self defeating behaviors only began with the reforms of the 60s. Indeed comparisons of the Irish and the Jews prior to WWII parallel todays comparisons of African Americans with East Asian immigrants.
Please dont tell me that there werent crime among the poor Irish. EVERY poor Irish neighborhood was feared and much has been written comparing their violence and involvement in petty crime especially when compared to the Jews and the Italians, who arrived equally poor and had the disadvantage of not knowing English.
Indeed crime among the Irish was higher than it was among African Americans prior to WWII, even though the latter were even more discriminated against, often used as scab labor against the Irish. hence the riots by Irish immigrants when they assaulted blacks and objected to being recruited into the army during the Civil War.
Indeed the establishment of Catholic charities and the Catholic school system was tied to the notion that these "unruly" Irish mobs needed to be tamed. By the 60s these efforts had succeeded and the Irish became an undifferentiated part of White America.
How does it feel to walk arm-in-arm with fellow victimhood sailor Sobro? Please, tell me you have not drunk the liberal punch and fallen victim to revisionism and cultural excuses? Okay, lets say the Irish were not 'tamed' in the 1920s but by the 1960s. How come native African-Americans have not been 'tamed' given that they have been here FAR FAR longer? Why does this sub culture get worse?
How come native African-Americans have not been 'tamed' given that they have been here FAR FAR longer? Why does this sub culture get worse?
The answer is the GI Bill (along with robust post war economic circumstances) which opened the door for millions of poor or blue collar ethnic Irish and Italians to enter the white collar class following WW2. As some people have already pointed out, blacks were excluded from combat service and consequently did not get wholesale beefits from the GI Bill. Hence they missed the boat. The wars that followed after WW2 like Korea and Vietnam were not as large in scale and scope; neither were the economic conditions that followed as robust. Had blacks been allowed to fully participate in WW2 and received the same GI Bill benefits, the situation would have been different by now.
Except for the part about Catholic charities taming the Irish/Italians, most of what carib said about pre WW2 Irish were true.
Forest Hills I gave up on commenting on this thread because you cannot teach reason and rationality to people who don't know history and have zero knowledge (and don't care to have any) other than what they see/feel based on their own circumstances/experiences.
The more facts you provide, the more history you inject, the more logic you discuss, the more you simply waste your time. I am hoping this thread fades away. However your are absolutely correct in your post. I will add though that is just one aspect of it...all the GI Bills in the world are not going to force schools to admit you, or employers to hire you, or allow you to move into neighborhoods, and on and on. It's a total exclusion in the ladder of success, network building, wealth building, and intergenerational transfers of wealth...and here we are in 2012.
I will say no more..feel free to keep up the good fight on this thread. It really just needs to close.
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Victimhood Boat
