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I dislike how some posts seem to imply that Black and Latin people born into lower economic circumstances, stay in those circumstances.
No need to imply this. It is a fact, and one that must be brought out into the open. While some do move ahead, the fact that a child of wealthier parents, especially those we would term actually wealthy, can be quite mediocre in intelligence and yet still become that doctor or lawyer. Whereas, with the group you mention, extreme intelligence and exceptional tenacity are required. In fact, exceptionalism in every way.
It is a reflection of our economic times and the stringency of the class-border policing that this is also increasingly true of middle class students. None can pay for a decent school, and to compete for scholarships, one must therefore be of significant intellectual caliber. Once arriving at an elite institution, the scholarship recipient will find him/herself surrounded by the mediocre overachievement, astonishing, really, all of the "intelligence" that money can buy !, of the wealthiest young people - and then, s/he will be expected to excel while also working one or more part-time jobs. A challenge that the wealthy children do not face. And so on. Then there is college, and at the end, our excellent student will find him/herself saddled with ENORMOUS student loan debt. This colonizes the entire rest of that person's life.
Just the facts. Yet, the powerful myth that in America, anything is available to anyone who "works hard" is one people simply will not stop consuming; people refuse to closely examine this, in spite of the facts. The dearth of critical thinking that is a key aspect of the "American identity" is just one reason.
Why would the truth hurt? I got in based on my score on that test. I just don't like the insinuation that some blacks/latinos get in because of cheating. Besides, you pointing out that your friends were from East Harlem/Ozone Park is irrelevant because the test is taken at the specialized high schools, not their neighborhood high school.
So, I just pointed out where they were from. The exam is also taken in other schools that are not specialized, I believe 2. I pointed out the proctor at the exam allowed cheating. Got it?
No need to imply this. It is a fact, and one that must be brought out into the open. While some do move ahead, the fact that a child of wealthier parents, especially those we would term actually wealthy, can be quite mediocre in intelligence and yet still become that doctor or lawyer. Whereas, with the group you mention, extreme intelligence and exceptional tenacity are required. In fact, exceptionalism in every way.
It is a reflection of our economic times and the stringency of the class-border policing that this is also increasingly true of middle class students. None can pay for a decent school, and to compete for scholarships, one must therefore be of significant intellectual caliber. Once arriving at an elite institution, the scholarship recipient will find him/herself surrounded by the mediocre overachievement, astonishing, really, all of the "intelligence" that money can buy !, of the wealthiest young people - and then, s/he will be expected to excel while also working one or more part-time jobs. A challenge that the wealthy children do not face. And so on. Then there is college, and at the end, our excellent student will find him/herself saddled with ENORMOUS student loan debt. This colonizes the entire rest of that person's life.
Just the facts. Yet, the powerful myth that in America, anything is available to anyone who "works hard" is one people simply will not stop consuming; people refuse to closely examine this, in spite of the facts. The dearth of critical thinking that is a key aspect of the "American identity" is just one reason.
Thank you. I was trying to point out flaws in the system. Stats mean very little nowadays, especially since such figures are easily misconstrued for a variety of reasons. I came from a poor background and faced the challenges that you expressed in great detail. The OP pointed out a great stat but I just think it may be inaccurate to say the least. The terms "blacks" and "hispanics" are broad terms. I have seen many immigrants from Africa and South America reap benefits for programs that were originally designed to help poor minorities who have been in America for yrs, even generations. Im not saying its bad thing. Its great to see kids who work hard reap such awards regardless of where they are from. What I am pointing out is the perplexing issue whether such programs help African American and Spanish Americans who have lived here in poverty. I have family and I know kids who came to America recently but they have a different "mindset" compared to American kids. They have only one goal which is to make money thru education and hardwork. I see kids born and brought up here being left behind. Maybe the poverty experienced by third world immigrants is far greater than anything seen in America. Naturally coming here, they see America "as the land of milk and honey."
I brought up the proctoring issue. In my previous post because like I stated 4 friends got into Tech because of a proctor who was not doing their job properly. These friends were not focused and did not study much. When graduation came around, none of them graduated on time.
This brings up some core issues. Inequality and quality of education being the main issues. So, how do we tackle the issue in an innovative way? I believe the Khan Academy offers an innovative solution that could make such inequalities that you thoughtfully expressed extinct. At the end of the day, if you make no effort, you will get anywhere but technology could be a game changer for those with less resources and access.
Last edited by Mistertee; 03-14-2012 at 10:55 PM..
What is the basis for your opinion? Perhaps a few people cheated and got in but it is by no means pervasive. I went to Stuy, did very well and got into an Ivy League school like a bunch of my peers and we weren't even the top students. Of course you will have slackers like anywhere else but they were in the minority and did not drag down the entire school with their presence. Most of the students there were driven to succeed and we had very capable teachers to help us along. I don't know how you want to define "elite" but for students who didn't have families with the money to send them to esteemed private high schools, these specialized high schools were the best launchpad to a great education and career.
You went to Stuy and Im talking about Tech. There is a big difference in the quality of educational resources.
Read up on how Dr. Lee McCaskill got his daughter into Tech. How do you know its a few? How do you know its not persuasive?
I went to Tech and my brother went to Stuy. We both received high quality secondary education that prepared us for top tier colleges. I can say that of many of our friends and associates as well.
What's the point of bringing up McCaskill's tenure at Tech. That was a blip on the screen. He's gone and Tech is in a wonderful growth period. You should check out what the alumni foundation is doing.
No need to imply this. It is a fact, and one that must be brought out into the open. While some do move ahead, the fact that a child of wealthier parents, especially those we would term actually wealthy, can be quite mediocre in intelligence and yet still become that doctor or lawyer. Whereas, with the group you mention, extreme intelligence and exceptional tenacity are required. In fact, exceptionalism in every way.
It is a reflection of our economic times and the stringency of the class-border policing that this is also increasingly true of middle class students. None can pay for a decent school, and to compete for scholarships, one must therefore be of significant intellectual caliber. Once arriving at an elite institution, the scholarship recipient will find him/herself surrounded by the mediocre overachievement, astonishing, really, all of the "intelligence" that money can buy !, of the wealthiest young people - and then, s/he will be expected to excel while also working one or more part-time jobs. A challenge that the wealthy children do not face. And so on. Then there is college, and at the end, our excellent student will find him/herself saddled with ENORMOUS student loan debt. This colonizes the entire rest of that person's life.
Just the facts. Yet, the powerful myth that in America, anything is available to anyone who "works hard" is one people simply will not stop consuming; people refuse to closely examine this, in spite of the facts. The dearth of critical thinking that is a key aspect of the "American identity" is just one reason.
There is generational poverty. There is also a poverty that I have witnessed in Harlem and elsewhere in the country, that is swept under the rug, and put in a catagory of generational poverty. This is a poverty where great-grandparents were working class and managed to buy homes, grand-parents made it well into the middle class and bought better homes in better neighborhoods, parents became addicted to drugs, or choosed life-styles ridden with social ills, children end up in poor crime ridden neighborhoods.
You can walk into most NYC PJ's and not too many people are 2nd or 3rd generation there. Some fall into this catagory because they may live with a grandparent that is there. Most people that grow up in PJ's leave the PJ's. Also many people are working/middle class in the PJ's.
Most PJ residents are first generation there.
Your 2nd paragraph basically describes the NY lifestyle. You have to be pretty swift mentally to make it here, under any circumstances. NYC is not a place for the mentally slow and faint at heart. However I disagree that you need to graduate from a Specialized HS, or go to an elite university. Although that does help tremendously, and it definitely more than helps if you are born wealthy. NYC is very hard to make it in without those things, but it may not be a as much of a concern outside of NYC. Having an education and a marketable skill is enough.
Sometimes people from NYC born without wealth and connections but have education and marketable skills, can use their mental agility to succeed in places outside of NYC. Sometimes as close LI and NJ. However sometimes it is hard to relocate even with a job offer, without someone giving you a boost if you have nothing at all to get started with. I have witnessed people from very humble beginnings that were able to do this.
I work in the financial field, I have said it before and I stand by it. Go to the college that you can afford to go to, without incurring much debt . A person can receive top grades and then receive fellowships, and stipends at some of the best graduate programs in the country. It does not make since to come out of undergrad with 6 figure debt, and a person will make a salary around 25 - 40K entry level.
Sometimes when I read post on this forum, the post read like doom and gloom especially for poor Black and Latin youngsters. I counter that, because no young person should ever believe that. Even if everyone around you is not going to school, not learning marketable skills, you can choose to do it. It will be hard at first. But you will definitely meet people that are going in your same direction that boost you along on your path. Don't believe in any doom and gloom posts.
Interesting thing I have noticed about the original specialized high schools. While I celebrate more black and Latino kids getting into them, there are are also noticeably more POOR students at Stuy, Bronx Science and Tech now, according to DOE stats.
Using kids on free/reduced lunch as a proxy for poverty, compare the share of those kids at these schools between 2007-08 school year and the 2009-2010 school year (last one in the state reports)
Stuyvesant: 34% poor in '08 -----------41% poor in '10
Bronx Sci : 22% poor in '08 -------------32% poor in '10
Brookyln Tech: 52% poor in '08 ---------64% poor in '10
And just for the interesting comparison, here are the numbers at LaGuardia, the specialized Arts HS
LaGuardia: 25% poor in '08--------------- 26% poor in '10
So clearly not having money is not an impediment to getting into the elite high schools in NYC. Just from the stats, it looks as if you're chances increase if you're poor AND Asian!
Where money seems to make a difference though is in arts training. For the most part that training is expensive and poor kids don't get the violin lessons, museum trips, summer theater camps, dance training, etc etc that gives these kids--who MUST be academically talented as well --a leg up.
Or is it that the really smart but poor kids know early on that they want to make money and don't see any quick and easily-defined way to do that in the arts, whereas the path to being a doctor, lawyer, or business exec is well-known and well-trod?
And to make it more complicated, LaGuardia has the greatst share of these four schools of black and Latino students at about 33% (combined).
So does that mean middle-class black and Latino students are opting for LaGuardia and shunning the acadmic big three?
Interesting thing I have noticed about the original specialized high schools. While I celebrate more black and Latino kids getting into them, there are are also noticeably more POOR students at Stuy, Bronx Science and Tech now, according to DOE stats.
Using kids on free/reduced lunch as a proxy for poverty, compare the share of those kids at these schools between 2007-08 school year and the 2009-2010 school year (last one in the state reports)
Stuyvesant: 34% poor in '08 -----------41% poor in '10
Bronx Sci : 22% poor in '08 -------------32% poor in '10
Brookyln Tech: 52% poor in '08 ---------64% poor in '10
And just for the interesting comparison, here are the numbers at LaGuardia, the specialized Arts HS
LaGuardia: 25% poor in '08--------------- 26% poor in '10
So clearly not having money is not an impediment to getting into the elite high schools in NYC. Just from the stats, it looks as if you're chances increase if you're poor AND Asian!
Where money seems to make a difference though is in arts training. For the most part that training is expensive and poor kids don't get the violin lessons, museum trips, summer theater camps, dance training, etc etc that gives these kids--who are also academically talented--a leg up.
Or is it that poor kids know early on that they want to make money and don't see any quick and easily-defined way to do that in the arts, whereas the path to being a doctor, lawyer, or business exec is well-known and well-trod?
And to make it more complicated, LaGuardia has the greatst share of these four schools of black and Latino students at about 33% (combined).
So does that mean middle-class black and Latino students are opting for LaGuardia and shunning the acadmic big three?
Your thoughts on all the above.
Free school lunch is a poor indicator of poverty in NYC. They don't ask for proof of the parents income, like tax forms. You mostly just have to complete a form. If they did only students that would qualify for food stamps would get free lunch. Mostly all students can get a free or reduced price lunch in NYC public schools.
Free school lunch is a poor indicator of poverty in NYC. They don't ask for proof of the parents income, like tax forms. You mostly just have to complete a form. If they did only students that would qualify for food stamps would get free lunch. Mostly all students can get a free or reduced price lunch in NYC public schools.
The numbers may be exaggerated, but the trends are probably true. More poor Kids at the Big thee and the same share at LGA. More poor kids are getting in.
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