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Just throwing it out there, but I'm pretty sure that data is from the 2000 census, not the 2010 census.
For instance, I typed in zip code 10303, and it said the median household income is $42,463. By contrast, I typed it into city-data, it gave a median income of $58,917.
I'm pretty sure city-data is just extrapolating the data from the 2000 census (i.e. assuming income has increased at the same rate in all neighborhoods), but the median income definitely hasn't remained at $42,463.
The same for the demographics. That zip code is definitely not 31.9% White. Doing a rough estimate from the 2010 census data, it's probably closer to 20% White.
This program pulls 2010 data. Really interesting looking at the side-by-side comparison. Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Agree. People tend to naturally self-segregate and if middle-class blacks feel more comfortable living in a predominantly middle-class black neighborhood then that is their choice, same with any other group. There's nothing racist or wrong with homogeneous neighborhoods.
Research shows that "higher socioeconomic status Blacks have more White neighbors, fewer poor neighbors, and live in neighborhoods with higher housing values. This pattern was evident in 1970, however, and appears to have changed little over time. To the extent Blacks are living in more integrated and higher-status neighborhoods, it appears to be because their socioeconomic status is improving."
Anecdotally, I can report this ... the majority of my friends with whom I grew up in Laurelton now live in integrated neighborhoods.
So, I ask the people who have commented that we choose to self-segregate, where is the evidence of this?
From Austin Contrarian on the "tipping point" theory"
"Suppose everyone is comfortable living in a racially-mixed neighborhood as long as at least 30% of the neighborhood's residents share their race. This is a pretty weak racial preference. But when a neighborhood is at a boundary -- 30% of one race and 70% of another race -- then the addition of just a few new households of the majority race will cause the minority to begin looking for other neighborhoods. Even if the minority have a wide range of preferences, small changes can cascade down until a neighborhood is racially segregated."
When people reach certain socioeconomic status levels, and educational levels, their values are similar, and what they want from their neighborhoods are the same. But there is something about the presence of black people (and Hispanics also, to some extent) regardless of SES/Education, that keeps neighborhoods segregated, even when they are middle class.
So, back to the original point ...
Aside from race, when you compare Laurelton and Bay Ridge, they are quite similar. Would a neighborhood like Laurelton need to have proportions of, say 30% white / 70% black before more whites would seriously consider it to be a desirable neighborhood?
I can understand having discomfort in being one of a few, and for that reason, I would not want to live in an all white neighborhood (I do live in racially mixed neighborhood by choice). So, I can perhaps understand the choice of Bay Ridge over Laurelton.
HOWEVER ... when white people say that Prospect Lefferts Gardens, East Flatbush or Crown Heights are "ghettos," but they live in Bushwick, I don't understand the rationale. There seems to be a lurking variable, which I call the coolness factor, which makes places like Bushwick exceptions, and it's very interesting. Any thoughts on this???
Looking at PLG and Bushwick side-by-side, in a link in my next post.
Last edited by queensgrl; 04-01-2012 at 06:58 AM..
Thanks to the poster who mentioned that we should use 2010 data. So, in doing your comparisons, try this siteModerator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed. To do a zip code comparison, click on "Search Community Demographics." After you enter one zip code and the data appears, there's a box on the right where you can enter another zip code to do a comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl
On a hunch that race is really the only thing separating middle class neighborhoods in NYC (causing one neighborhood to be perceived as desirable and the other, not) I did a side-by-side comparison of Laurelton (Queens) and Bay Ridge.
And, I found exactly what I expected to find. Demographically speaking,[household income, educational attainment, occupation, marital status, (stability, as measured by at least 5 years in home)] the neighborhoods are almost identical. On several of these measures, Laurelton scored higher.
The reason why 11209 and 11413 differ so drastically racially is because in the 1960s and 70s, Laurelton was subjected to blockbusting and redlining, which changed the racial composition forever.
11209
White - 72.3%
Black - 1.4%
Hispanic - 11.0%
Asian - 10.0%
11413
White - 1.9%
Black - 89.4%
Hispanic - 4.4%
Asian - 0.6%
Try it yourself. Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Aesthetically, Bay Ridge has the shore, but the neighborhoods in the interior are typical, IMO.
After hanging around this forum for a few years, I am convinced that people are afraid of living around black people, no matter how middle class they are. It's too bad, too. There could be LOTS of middle class, racially balanced neighborhoods if people would give it a chance.
Last edited by Yac; 05-23-2012 at 05:41 AM..
Reason: correction
It's interesting that there's a perception that black middle class people want to self-segregate. Migration patterns show quite the opposite. We tend to move to neighborhoods that are more integrated, and that have people with common values (family, good schools, safety, etc.).
I think that your observations are current. In the past, it was not just block-busting that changed neighborhoods but the fact that white people did not want to live with black people middle class or otherwise. I grew up in the Bronx in the 70's and saw it first hand. I witnessed the flight of white people from the neighborhoods around the Grand Concourse as blacks and hispanics moved into the neighborhoods. The socio-economic policies of the times combined with racism devastated solidly midlle class neighborhoods.
It's great to see evidence that this is changing. There are few fully white neighborhoods anymore and even Harlem is seeing white people move back. The socio-economic policies have changed and so have racial perceptions.
Out of curiosity what percent of the whites in Bay Ridge and and the blacks in Laurelton are foreign-born or descendents of recent immigrants. Arabs are counted as white in the census. Is a lot of the population in Bay Ridge Arab or recent Russian immigrants? And does Laurelton have a lot of Black immigrants from the Caribean.
Out of curiosity what percent of the whites in Bay Ridge and and the blacks in Laurelton are foreign-born or descendents of recent immigrants. Arabs are counted as white in the census. Is a lot of the population in Bay Ridge Arab or recent Russian immigrants? And does Laurelton have a lot of Black immigrants from the Caribean.
How do the schools of both compare? Crime rates?
Do the side-by-side zip code omparison to get answers to some of these questions. Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Today, Laurelton is mostly Caribbean. When I was growing up, it was African American. Please don't try to argue that Laurelton's positive aspects are representative of it being Caribbean. When it was majority African American in the 70s, it was a wonderful place to live. It's only downside, IMO, is transportation on the MTA if you work in Manhattan. But, there is an LIRR station in town, which offers an alternative. And, if you drive to work it's just lovely. Good parking, no alternate side, garages, etc.
You'd have to look at InsideSchools.org to compare schools but bear this in mind when measuring schools -- an all black school district is capable of producing stellar students. District 29 in Queens (where Laurelton is) was once one of many majority black communities that year-after-year sent kids to the specialized high schools.
I would suggest that you look at the performance of PS/IS 208 P.S./I.S. 208 - insideschools.org as an example of a good school in today's District 29.
Eagle Academy III, which co-located in IS 59, recently opened for boys, only, has had good reviews too.
2010 Crime Rate Indexes
11209 is on the left, 11413 is on the right
Total Crime Rate Index
138 134
Murder Risk Index
201 112
Rape Risk Index
62 78
Robbery Risk Index
318 357
Assault Risk Index
215 174
Burglary Risk Index
97 83
Larceny Risk Index
90 67
Motor Vehicle Theft Risk Index
91 119
Crime Risk Index (100 = National Average): Index score for an area is compared to the national average of 100.
On a hunch that race is really the only thing separating middle class neighborhoods in NYC (causing one neighborhood to be perceived as desirable and the other, not) I did a side-by-side comparison of Laurelton (Queens) and Bay Ridge.
And, I found exactly what I expected to find. Demographically speaking,[household income, educational attainment, occupation, marital status, (stability, as measured by at least 5 years in home)] the neighborhoods are almost identical. On several of these measures, Laurelton scored higher.
The reason why 11209 and 11413 differ so drastically racially is because in the 1960s and 70s, Laurelton was subjected to blockbusting and redlining, which changed the racial composition forever.
11209
White - 72.3%
Black - 1.4%
Hispanic - 11.0%
Asian - 10.0%
11413
White - 1.9%
Black - 89.4%
Hispanic - 4.4%
Asian - 0.6%
Try it yourself.Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Aesthetically, Bay Ridge has the shore, but the neighborhoods in the interior are typical, IMO.
After hanging around this forum for a few years, I am convinced that people are afraid of living around black people, no matter how middle class they are. It's too bad, too. There could be LOTS of middle class, racially balanced neighborhoods if people would give it a chance.
I kinda understand from where your coming from.
But most people (regardless of their race) want to move to an area where they feel they will be most accepted and fit in best. Nobody wants to be outcasted. It's natural and it wouldn't make them racist if they prefer an area where they wouldn't stick out too much. I say this as a Black person.
Last edited by Yac; 04-03-2012 at 06:48 AM..
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Same thing in the Bronx?
