Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
These maintenance rates are comparable to maintenance rates for condos in the US cities.
Co-op fees in NYC also include property taxes, which in Paris are 1% of the property value. When my Paris-born and raised late boyfriend was still alive, there used to be additional taxe d'habitation of 3% for most people, but now I think it is limited only to homes worth more than 1M euro, or second homes.
The unit that costs 570k euro would be subject to 5,700 euro (ie, more than $6k) in real estate taxes per year. The taxes would be 22,800 euro (ie, about $25k) per year if the unit is not the primary home but a pied a terre.
The unit that costs 2.2 million euro would be subject to 88,000 euro (ie, about $100k) in real estate/habitation taxes per year.
They have universal healthcare because healthcare fund contributions are collected universally (ie, they do not have a situation where half of the population pays nothing for health insurance, and the other half pays double).
Oh I see, there must be something similar with the London apartments, because the maintenance listed seems way too low (although there was a mention of "council taxes" being included). I looked up some Rome apartments for sale and saw all these monthly condo fees under 100 euros/month which just seemed impossibly cheap.
They also don't have the crazy health care and college costs that we do. We're doing something wrong here.
I used to have a condo in Italy and although the "official" common charges were very low and hardly ever changed it was completely different in reality because there were constant assessments to pay for things as the year went along and then at the end of every year there was another huge assessment to reconcile the books and pay the managing agents ( who did nothing) for the end of the year. Also, it included no property taxes or municipial taxes and in Italy there is also what's called a tassa rifiuti or waste tax,recycling tax or whatever you want to call it which is over and above everything else. In the end it was not cheap AT ALL.
There is also a 22% sales tax on virtually EVERYTHING and an income tax!!!!
Also a yearly tax on the washing machine, a yearly tax on the dryer,etc ,etc
The reason there is such a huge underground economy in Italy and why they still have real estate closings where a bag of cash is slipped under the table and never shows in the "legal" transaction is because they are taxed to death.
Might be the same/similar type situation in France.
I'll take my 676/mo co op maintenance which includes virtually everything any day.
Oh I see, there must be something similar with the London apartments, because the maintenance listed seems way too low (although there was a mention of "council taxes" being included). I looked up some Rome apartments for sale and saw all these monthly condo fees under 100 euros/month which just seemed impossibly cheap.
I just have a comment on your first sentence, which is that I have noticed that co-ops in NYC area actually do not cost too much to purchase, and do not appreciate much, compared with condos in other cities (where a more common form of unit ownership structure is a condo assoc rather than co-op).
You mention your/your ex-wife's coop in Queens which cost $75k in 1989, and is now worth over $200k. As you know, I own a condo in one of two best areas of central Boston, which would have been worth around $75k in 1992 when I moved to Boston. I bought it for cash in the year 2000, for $147k. It is worth about $450k now.
At the same time I bought my Boston condo, in 2000, the cheapesr micro co-ops in Tudor City in Manhattan could be found in the $150s k, so comparable to my condo price. But these Tudor City co-ops appreciated only up to about $285k-315k (pre-Covid, now there are some on the market for $250k) in the same 20 years during which my Boston condo went up to $450k. Also, the annual co-op fees for the smallest co-ops in Tudor City are about $10k per year, while my Boston condo fees and taxes are about $3.3k per year.
What it boils down to is that NYC co-ops are getting to be some weird concept that is somewhere between renting and owning a unit, but more and more approaching the rental situation. They do not cost too much to purchase - but that is because they have exorbitant maintenance fees, plus they appreciate relatively little. The divergence between the purchase price and maintenance price for NYC co-ops has been progressively increasing over the years/decades that I have been watching the situation, ie, there is progressively less increase in purchase prices, with progressively more increasing cost of maintenance. It really seems to be approaching the point where owning a co-op is not too much different from renting it - so, what happens when that point is reached?? Have you ever heard of a co-op being converted into a condo association (where the ownership structure and appreciation of individual units is different)?
I think you are over generalizing quite a bit.
In the early 90's the co ops in my Bronx building were selling for between $25,000 and $30,000.
Today they sell for between $250,000 and $300,000. So prices have gone up 10x which is actually much better than your condo in Boston which has gone up 3x or 4x.
Both Tudor City and Parkchester are market anomalies with differing issues that have hindered resale values in both complexes for decades so you can't really use either as representative of anything.
They definitely have powerful trade unions but I don't know enough to make comparisons. I thought high maintenance in NYC has more to do with the way co-ops are taxed here. I haven't seen property taxes in France anywhere near what you see in suburbs around NYC either.
Everyone seems to forget that by far the biggest chunk of co op maintenances is the interest on underlying mortgages,if they exist, on the buildings. Second is NYC property tax. Together they can be well over 50% ...sometimes 60 or 70% of the expense. Luckily they are tax deductible.
There are loads of coops in NY that have either completely paid off their underlying mortgages or are well on their way to doing so. In those buildings ,maintenances can be minimal .
Some buildings dangerously stay afloat by constantly refinancing (and upping) their underlying mortgage debt to pay expenses.
There are also buildings where there is no/never was an underlying mortgage and owners are also not allowed to finance their purchase. All cash/no debt.
So maintenances are not always high. It all depends on the culture of the building.
Everyone seems to forget that by far the biggest chunk of co op maintenances is the interest on underlying mortgages on the buildings. Second is NYC property tax. Together they can be well over 50% ...sometimes 60 or 70% of the expense. Luckily they are tax deductible.
There are loads of coops in NY that have either completely paid off their underlying mortgages or are well on their way to doing so. In those buildings ,maintenances can be minimal .
Some buildings dangerously stay afloat by constantly refinancing (and upping) their underlying mortgage debt to pay expenses.
There are also buildings where there is no underlying mortgage and owners are not allowed to finance the purchase. All cash/no debt.
Maintenances are not always high .It all depends on the culture of the building.
But remember if there is no building mortgage your personal mortgage will just be higher or the asking price is higher ....no matter how you divide up the apartment value and who is holding the mortgage the total value is always the same value
But remember if there is no building mortgage your personal mortgage will just be higher or the asking price is higher....no matter how you divide up the apartment value and who is holding the mortgage the total value is always the same value
Well yes and no. I understand what you are saying, especially within a building but when I was looking I found numerous buildings in The Bronx at least with no underlying mortgages and no purchase mortgages allowed and the asking prices were very much below comparable buildings with underlying mortgages where purchase financing was permitted.
I assume this was because in a market like The Bronx, especially at that period in time, there were very few buyers with $100,000 cash sitting around. Nice well run buildings, nice apartments at really great prices if you had the cash and could prove it was your funds.
By the way, are you sure your ex's coop in Kew Gardens is only worth $200,000 today ? Seems very,very low for an apartment almost anywhere at this point,especially Kew Gardens.
Unless maybe Mitchell Lama?
Most of the time like apartments in an area will be pretty close in price ..but some may be more desirable than others ...things like a flip tax can keep expenses down .....my daughters coop in Howard beach has lower maintenance then others but it has a flip tax.
Since the board won’t waive the flip tax if the bank forecloses she had to put down more money to get a mortgage
Most of the time like apartments in an area will be pretty close in price ..but some may be more desirable than others ...things like a flip tax can keep expenses down .....my daughters coop in Howard beach has lower maintenance then others but it has a flip tax.
Since the board won’t waive the flip tax if the bank forecloses she had to put down more money to get a mortgage
Well, obviously in The Bronx at that time , the desirability of being able to get a mortgage trumped other factors.
Well yes and no. I understand what you are saying, especially within a building but when I was looking I found numerous buildings in The Bronx at least with no underlying mortgages and no purchase mortgages allowed and the asking prices were very much below comparable buildings with underlying mortgages where purchase financing was permitted.
I assume this was because in a market like The Bronx, especially at that period in time, there were very few buyers with $100,000 cash sitting around. Nice well run buildings, nice apartments at really great prices if you had the cash and could prove it was your funds.
By the way, are you sure your ex's coop in Kew Gardens is only worth $200,000 today ? Seems very,very low for an apartment almost anywhere at this point,especially Kew Gardens.
Unless maybe Mitchell Lama?
It is a one bedroom and the last sales in the building showed 200-225k ..I will look again ....it is a great area too , the LIRR is across the street ..you can walk to the subway and it is just blocks from the queens court house ....I will go look it up now
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
