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I used to have a condo in Italy and although the "official" common charges were very low and hardly ever changed it was completely different in reality because there were constant assessments to pay for things as the year went along and then at the end of every year there was another huge assessment to reconcile the books and pay the managing agents ( who did nothing) for the end of the year. Also, it included no property taxes or municipial taxes and in Italy there is also what's called a tassa rifiuti or waste tax,recycling tax or whatever you want to call it which is over and above everything else. In the end it was not cheap AT ALL.
There is also a 22% sales tax on virtually EVERYTHING and an income tax!!!!
Also a yearly tax on the washing machine, a yearly tax on the dryer,etc ,etc
The reason there is such a huge underground economy in Italy and why they still have real estate closings where a bag of cash is slipped under the table and never shows in the "legal" transaction is because they are taxed to death.
Might be the same/similar type situation in France.
I'll take my 676/mo co op maintenance which includes virtually everything any day.
That's so cool - where was your condo (if you don't mind saying)? I always thought it would be great to buy a place in one of those small tying hill towns full of senior citizens when I'm one myself. I met quite a few Italians who complain that they're being taxed to death, but the French seem generally much happier with their system, even though sales tax is very high there too. But honestly, tax on your washing machine?
I watch these French real estate shows on youtube (similar to House Hunters on HGTV). It's a great vicarious escape. Do you know if there's something like that on youtube in Italian?
I think you are over generalizing quite a bit.
In the early 90's the co ops in my Bronx building were selling for between $25,000 and $30,000.
Today they sell for between $250,000 and $300,000. So prices have gone up 10x which is actually much better than your condo in Boston which has gone up 3x or 4x.
Both Tudor City and Parkchester are market anomalies with differing issues that have hindered resale values in both complexes for decades so you can't really use either as representative of anything.
My condo in Boston has gone up 3x since 2000, not since 1990 (it would have been about $75k in 1990, I bought it for $147k in 2000, it is worth $450k now). The area where I am in Boston was never cheap, though, which is why the price started from a higher level than your Bronx co-op in 1990. Prices in the Bronx around 1990 were so deeply depressed that it meant nothing if the price doubled or even tripled. If you bought a 2-bdrm co-op in your Bronx building in 1990 for $25k and sold it today, you would have made a profit of $225k-$275k. If you bought my small studio in Boston in 1990 for $75k, and sold it today, you would have made a profit of $375k - so, still a $100k bigger profit on a much smaller unit.
Parkchester (condo) prices for 2-bdrm were around $25k in 1995 too actually, and are around $250k now - but the prices increased sharply after Parkchester Preservation bought a large part of the condo complex in 1998, then dropped somewhat when it became clear that Parkchester would never be an upscale address no matter what, then stagnated for about 10 years at exactly the same level, and increased 40% in the past 4 years.
Very small (275-300 sq ft) co-ops in Tudor City only went up by 20% since 2008, and even that has been erased almost completely by the Covid situation. You could regularly buy them for $250k in 2008, and I have seen at least one unit advertised for that same price in recent weeks.
So yes, prices of both co-ops and condos fluctuate up and down in NYC, under the influence of real estate speculation and neighborhood popularity factor, much more than in most other cities. But in the absence of positive change in those factors, prices of co-ops in NYC tend to not change much - slow growth of prices in Tudor City is the same as in other co-op buildings in Midtown East, so not specific to Tudor City. Same for Kew Gardens in Queens where I also looked - very unremarkable appreciation since 2008.
Everyone seems to forget that by far the biggest chunk of co op maintenances is the interest on underlying mortgages,if they exist, on the buildings. Second is NYC property tax. Together they can be well over 50% ...sometimes 60 or 70% of the expense. Luckily they are tax deductible.
There are loads of coops in NY that have either completely paid off their underlying mortgages or are well on their way to doing so. In those buildings ,maintenances can be minimal .
Some buildings dangerously stay afloat by constantly refinancing (and upping) their underlying mortgage debt to pay expenses.
There are also buildings where there is no/never was an underlying mortgage and owners are also not allowed to finance their purchase. All cash/no debt.
So maintenances are not always high. It all depends on the culture of the building.
It's probably a good thing I didn't buy a coop because I knew none of this when we were looking at them.
That's so cool - where was your condo (if you don't mind saying)? I always thought it would be great to buy a place in one of those small tying hill towns full of senior citizens when I'm one myself. I met quite a few Italians who complain that they're being taxed to death, but the French seem generally much happier with their system, even though sales tax is very high there too. But honestly, tax on your washing machine?
I watch these French real estate shows on youtube (similar to House Hunters on HGTV). It's a great vicarious escape. Do you know if there's something like that on youtube in Italian?
It was in Florence.
Not sure about any Italian Real estate youtube stuff but if I find any I'll let you know.
That's so cool - where was your condo (if you don't mind saying)? I always thought it would be great to buy a place in one of those small tying hill towns full of senior citizens when I'm one myself. I met quite a few Italians who complain that they're being taxed to death, but the French seem generally much happier with their system, even though sales tax is very high there too. But honestly, tax on your washing machine?
I watch these French real estate shows on youtube (similar to House Hunters on HGTV). It's a great vicarious escape. Do you know if there's something like that on youtube in Italian?
It was in Florence.
Not sure about any Italian Real estate youtube stuff but if I find any I'll let you know.
I spent a year in Siena so not so far away, but I'm really out of practice. If I have to speak Italian for any significant length of time, I feel like my brain is gonna explode.
what is funny is co-ops may actually work out better than condos now .
people are worried about the real estate market falling from covid .
"In a down market, the very thing that frustrates buyers about co-ops—their cautious-to-the-point-of-invasive attention to every detail of residents’ finances—can be the key to their attraction, positioning them as a safe bet for riding out economic turmoil."
Last edited by mathjak107; 11-26-2020 at 04:25 AM..
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