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The trio of the JMZ goes nowhere near Mid-town, but yet they're the first to get the new computer trains over the E which is bursting as the seams durning rushours and has the oldest trains in the systems.
So no-one can figure the MTA priorities out.
The first line to get the new high-tech trains was actually the L line--and there was a reason for it. The L line is the only one in the system without switches and crossovers (well, OK, there's actually one at Broadway Junction, but it hasn't been used in the last 45 years). They chose the line for the new trains because it was easier to "prove" that the new technology works...
You must remember that the computer-based train system was designed by Siemens, which is a German company. They designed a basic system that could conceivably be implemented in any city. Siemens wasn't taking the very unique system that is ours into consideration. There aren't any other cities around the world with a subway like New York's--with four track layouts that allow expresses and locals running in both directions simultaneously. And it has more switches and crossovers than any other subway.
So MTA decided to implement the new system on the L line, which doesn't actually prove that it works anywhere else. The J/M/Z lines also have a minimum of switches and crossovers. The same goes for the #7, which will be getting the new high tech trains next. They're new to the Q line, although this is a very tentative move.
What MTA wants is a system run without people. No matter what you may think of transit workers (Yours Truly being one of them), any system that carries five million people a day ought to have human beings running things, not computers. Computers can be programmed to set signals and switches, which isn't the same thing as running a railroad.
I do believe that it is correct that it is the legacy of Robert Moses why the interconnectedness of the Bronx and Queens is so lacking today. It would be good to have this addressed, since the buses are woefully inadequate for a state-of-the-art transportation system.
You're entirely right about Robert Moses. It wasn't an oversight to have the extremities of the outer boroughs underserviced or not serviced at all by the subways. It was a carefully calculated strategy on his part to keep the "ragtag mobs" out of the better parts of the city. He was an absolute elitist.
His plan was that since most people worked in or near midtown and lower Manhattan, where most industries and businesses were located, the less fortunate would use the subways for transportation and live close to their jobs. But the upper classes would live further out, in beautiful, bucolic areas requiring access by automobile. The further out, the more elite. Since few poor people could afford cars in those days, there was little likelihood that these exclusive neighborhoods and towns would be contaminated by riffraff.
Thus, this evil genius' scheme is why it's still so difficult to get around by public transportation in the outer limits of NYC. There are no subways and the few buses that there are run infrequently.
Last edited by Pivot Point; 09-03-2008 at 09:52 AM..
The first line to get the new high-tech trains was actually the L line--and there was a reason for it. The L line is the only one in the system without switches and crossovers (well, OK, there's actually one at Broadway Junction, but it hasn't been used in the last 45 years). They chose the line for the new trains because it was easier to "prove" that the new technology works...
You must remember that the computer-based train system was designed by Siemens, which is a German company. They designed a basic system that could conceivably be implemented in any city. Siemens wasn't taking the very unique system that is ours into consideration. There aren't any other cities around the world with a subway like New York's--with four track layouts that allow expresses and locals running in both directions simultaneously. And it has more switches and crossovers than any other subway.
So MTA decided to implement the new system on the L line, which doesn't actually prove that it works anywhere else. The J/M/Z lines also have a minimum of switches and crossovers. The same goes for the #7, which will be getting the new high tech trains next. They're new to the Q line, although this is a very tentative move.
What MTA wants is a system run without people. No matter what you may think of transit workers (Yours Truly being one of them), any system that carries five million people a day ought to have human beings running things, not computers. Computers can be programmed to set signals and switches, which isn't the same thing as running a railroad.
Yes but all of the b'way lines (Q/N/W) goes thru several switches (mainly the Q at the BK end of the Bridge) and they all have had the new trains in the last 3 week, even the M which goes back into BK during AM and PM rush hits several switches.
I guess I will never understand how these line get newer Trains, over the E which besides the 4 5 6 on the east side is the MTA's most congested line, and the E has the oldest trains of any Line with non-working AC in most cars.
I guess I will never understand how these line get newer Trains, over the E which besides the 4 5 6 on the east side is the MTA's most congested line, and the E has the oldest trains of any Line with non-working AC in most cars.
It's got nothing to do with the age of the equipment. Although I can tell you this: the new cars--they're called model R-160, by the way--are coming in a big way. When the full order has been delivered, they're going to make up about two-thirds of the entire fleet.
Incidentally, you can't mix IRT cars (the IRT division runs the numbered lines) with any of the others. That's because they're smaller and narrower. If you ran them through an IND station, there'd be a gap of more than a foot between the train and the platform. Similarly, if you try to run an IND or BMT train through an IRT station, the train would be sheared off by the platform. So a car running on the #4 line cannot be switched over to the E, for example.
This is absolutely ridiculous that MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are being spent on BRIDGE NAME CHANGES while there is still NO successful train traveling from the Bronx through Queens and Brooklyn! Even the G train has been worse than ever! Honestly if money is an issue with building a new line EXTEND THE G AND MAKE IT MORE EFFICIENT!!!! So tired of dealing with a horrible commute. Someone please enlighten me as to why this train has yet to be built...
Hi. I grew up in the Bronx. I now live in Queens and I used to travel between the two boroughs while I dated my then-girlfriend (now my wife). I used to take the Q44 many times. And yes, it's slow. A train from the Bronx to Queens would have made my trip much faster. And given the traffic on the three Bronx-Queens bridges, I would think that a Bronx-Queens train line would be a success.
For once I agree with you. I believe Hong Kong's system is the model.
Quote:
No matter what you may think of transit workers (Yours Truly being one of them), any system that carries five million people a day ought to have human beings running things, not computers. Computers can be programmed to set signals and switches, which isn't the same thing as running a railroad.
Frankly, software can easily be written to run a railroad. Much of what is necessary already exists. The problem w/b in implementing it in NYC; and, having the most incompetent public agency responsible.
Private enterprise could do it.
In any consequence, the real nightmare is a system w/o human security factors. Crime is back! It is only a matter of time before crime is out of contol ala the 70s. Can you imagine, no token booth clerks, no engineers, no conductors? And a city full of ripe Transplant victims. A predator's wet dream!
When the subway system was built, they unfortunately didn't have the foresight to plan effective transportation within the outer-boroughs. As more and more jobs are being pushed out of the city (Manhattan) and into outer-boroughs and surrounding burbs, this is becoming a real problem.
They had plenty of foresight! All roads led to Manhattan.
Its only a problem for Transplants, who seem to not to find Manhattan, and don't have cars. Everyone else finds Manhattan jobs just fine, and drives everywhere else.
The same can be said for Queens to Brooklyn.. they designed the trains to go to Manhattan, because that's where everyone needed to go for work and such.
You're right (except, Brooklyn and Queens are connected by the infrequent (G) train). People originally moved to tenements in Manhattan to be close to their jobs, and the subway was built to allow them to move to more spread-out areas (though they were probably still fairly urban) and still be able to access their jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie1249
You're entirely right about Robert Moses. It wasn't an oversight to have the extremities of the outer boroughs underserviced or not serviced at all by the subways. It was a carefully calculated strategy on his part to keep the "ragtag mobs" out of the better parts of the city. He was an absolute elitist.
His plan was that since most people worked in or near midtown and lower Manhattan, where most industries and businesses were located, the less fortunate would use the subways for transportation and live close to their jobs. But the upper classes would live further out, in beautiful, bucolic areas requiring access by automobile. The further out, the more elite. Since few poor people could afford cars in those days, there was little likelihood that these exclusive neighborhoods and towns would be contaminated by riffraff.
Thus, this evil genius' scheme is why it's still so difficult to get around by public transportation in the outer limits of NYC. There are no subways and the few buses that there are run infrequently.
The buses don't run that infrequently, except for some lines on the far edges of the city.
At this point, with gentrification occurring, the poor are being forced further out, closer to those areas that he intended to be for the "elite". Unfortunately, while those areas still have decent transit for local trips (buses), it is very hard to travel far distances, as you first have to take a bus to the subway, and then take a circuitous route if your trip is between 2 outer boroughs, like between East Flatbush, Brooklyn and Ozone Park, Queens (I'm not saying that these are poor areas, though I'm sure they have seen increases in poor people coming into these neighborhoods, but I'm using them as examples of trips that are hard to make)
They should build a line starting somewhere on the 7 in Flushing, connecting to La Guardia Airport, going down Astoria blvd to connect with the N / W at the Astoria Blvd station, then across the Triboro bridge to connect with the 4 / 5 / 6 at 125th for easy access to the east side or the Bronx.
That would probably cost an arm and a leg though, but at least you'd have a lot of the LGA folks using it.
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