Trump: Upstate New Yorkers Should Move Away & Leave Homes Behind (Buffalo: 2013, crime rate)
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I was in Buffalo and Rochester in 2007, I disliked both of them and wrote about it here extensively. Then I visited recently (Buffalo 2016 and Roc just a couple of weeks ago) and I was really surprised on how much nicer they are now. I certainly wouldn't describe them as dismal, dark, and dreary (yes, the weather can be for 4 months. I don't deny that. But then 8 months of pretty darn nice weather).
Of course there are bad neighborhoods. Does Phoenix and LA not have these areas too? Las Vegas? Albuquerque is one of the most dangerous cities in the US. Pretty much every city within 300 miles of where you live has bad areas is my point, and many of them have bad areas much larger than any Upstate city in NY.
As for AZ natural resources, I am not denying that they are beautiful. AZ is a beautiful state, overall. So is NY, overall. But just as NY has nasty areas in parts, AZ also has a lot of ugly tract housing and ugly brown areas with tons of strip malls, completely devoid of any character. I know you don't live in Phoenix but also not everyone in NY lives in Peekskill. Yes, Rockland and the NYC metro has run-down areas. Trust me, I'm in them all the time.
NYC definitely isn't like living in Latin America. There's a mix of White, Asian, Latino, Black, Jewish, and now mainly hipsters! etc all over the place. Like I said, I think things have changed a bit since you were last here perhaps. I think you may have lived in a crap part of NY. Certainly they exist. You couldn't pay me to live in Newburgh, Peekskill, or Poughkeepsie. But nor could I be paid to live in Mesa, Phoenix, Tempe or Las Vegas for that matter. Sometimes its a matter of moving a few towns or a county away.
It's a shame what happened to Peekskill. It's in a choice location on the Hudson River. It also has some of the most beautiful Victorian homes imaginable. Homes that if they were located just a few miles away would be worth a fortune. Many of those homes have become run down multi family units. For us it was about the only place where we could afford to buy a home that was convenient to our jobs, friends and family. Our neighborhood wasn't too bad until all of the illegal invaders started moving in. Along with that came all the trash and noise. There was a major drug bust just five houses up from us. DEA, FBI, both local and state police, swat teams, flak jackets, the works. It was just like on TV! They raided the home at five in the morning and were there all day.
You're right NYC may not be like living in Latin America. But it's like living in or visiting a foreign country all the same. Too many foreign languages spoken and a failure of many of it's residents to assimilate. I've been down to the city enough times to witness that. Spanish Harlem, the South Bronx, Chinatown, East 125th street and more.
My wife and I were both born and raised in Irvington, New York. When we lived there it was predominantly middle class. There were a lot of large estates with huge stone mansions that resembled castles on the Rhine. After the owners of those estates died developers came in and put up multi-million dollar homes. The poorest neighborhoods if you can call it that were the side streets off of and including Main Street. Houses there are now going for over $700,000. What made Irvington attractive was it's walkability to the train station and lack of big box stores and supermarkets. Yet they are located only a few miles away in the neighboring towns. Irvington doesn't have all the traffic and congestion that goes along with that. It's mainly residential with a few small stores and boutiques on Main Street.
Obviously there are good and bad parts of every city and every town of every state. To argue which state is better or which state has more of it regarding that is pointless. Fortunately at least for some of us, we don't have to live in those places. If you have a choice, why would anyone want to?
We chose to live in Arizona because we absolutely love the southwest. Every aspect of it, from politics to the scenery. It's where we truly belong. There's just nothing in this world like it. Utah and New Mexico were our second and third choices. Arizona has a little bit of everything in it, mountains, lakes, deep canyons, palm trees and of course the desert. Some parts along the Colorado River resemble a tropical paradise. We're in central Arizona which is beautiful in it's own right, amongst the ponderosa pines and juniper trees. There are hiking trails right in our own neighborhood that go up into the mountains with scenic overlooks where it almost feels like you're flying as you look down into the valley. But if it weren't for the summer heat we'd be living in the middle of the Sonoran Desert (our favorite place) with it's strange creatures and it's hauntingly beautiful landscape. It's only an hours drive and we've spent a lot of time out there. Oh God, how we love it!
Last edited by Ex New Yorker; 07-29-2017 at 12:40 PM..
If you have some skills, ok. But if you're moving to a higher COL for $150 more a week and have no job security then it might not be the best idea if you're over 40.
I think the real takeaway is that he's ok with turning everything outside of the NYC metro into a ghost town.
It's up to the individual person to decide whether that $150 more in a higher COL area is worth it. Having A job is better than having NO job for most people. Even if you have to cut back a bit. This is why I don't understand the response to what Trump said. It's common sense actually. He didn't say EVERY person should move, but there's nothing wrong with saying that people in economically depressed areas (and there are economically depressed areas upstate) should consider moving to improve their position. Sitting around and waiting probably isn't the best course of action.
It's up to the individual person to decide whether that $150 more in a higher COL area is worth it. Having A job is better than having NO job for most people. Even if you have to cut back a bit. This is why I don't understand the response to what Trump said. It's common sense actually. He didn't say EVERY person should move, but there's nothing wrong with saying that people in economically depressed areas (and there are economically depressed areas upstate) should consider moving to improve their position. Sitting around and waiting probably isn't the best course of action.
I think the issue is with the general assumption that all of upstate is depressed and that there may be a general ignorance, as well as apathy towards that part of the state. Hence, the response.
I think the issue is with the general assumption that all of upstate is depressed and that there may be a general ignorance, as well as apathy towards that part of the state. Hence, the response.
That's because a lot of it is. Especially in places where manufacturing has packed up and left. Then there's a lot of it that resembles Norman Rockwell's America. Quaint little towns that you'd find on a post card.
There's a lot of places out here too that are economically depressed but they always were. Most are on Indian reservations. There was never any manufacturing or middle class jobs to begin with. One of the worst places we've been to was near Las Vegas, New Mexico. Which has some of the most deplorable living conditions imaginable at least from what we saw from the train. That's one thing about rail travel you get to see a lot more than what you see from driving on the highway. We've done both.
Last edited by Ex New Yorker; 07-29-2017 at 05:12 PM..
I've been all over New York State, God only knows how many times including Rochester, Buffalo and Albany. You're forgetting that I have lived in New York State for most of my life. I'm quite familiar with it. True there are some nice area's just as there are some beautiful places upstate. I lived in the Hudson Valley and still have a fondness for that area. As far as Rochester, Buffalo and Albany and other than maybe Gary, Indiana. You couldn't pay me enough money to live there. There's a reason why it's so cheap at least by New York's standards. They are some of the most depressing places in the United States. You do not hear of too many people rushing to move there from other places. Or even vacation there for that matter. Dismal, dank and dreary is about the best way to describe it.
wow is all I can say. I work with somebody who is an Arizona transplant who was born and raised in Arizona and goes back every year to visit family. And he has the exact opposite opinions of you on how "dreary" Rochester is and how awesome AZ is. This is what he told me about AZ. His words, not mine. He said that Arizona citizens are some of the most pale in the country because even though they get so much sunshine, you can't go out in it 6 months of the year due to heat. So you spend 6 months living inside. And during summer when you want to go out, you can't he said. He told me the schools are the worst in the country and the infrastructure is third world like because of politics and the refusal to fund anything. Again, his words, not mine.
Irony how the transplant to AZ sees it as this fantastic place and a former native has no desire to ever live there again after moving to a virtually opposite climate. He swapped AZ summers for Rochester summers and AZ winters for Rochester winters and prefers Rochester in every way over AZ.
wow is all I can say. I work with somebody who is an Arizona transplant who was born and raised in Arizona and goes back every year to visit family. And he has the exact opposite opinions of you on how "dreary" Rochester is and how awesome AZ is. This is what he told me about AZ. His words, not mine. He said that Arizona citizens are some of the most pale in the country because even though they get so much sunshine, you can't go out in it 6 months of the year due to heat. So you spend 6 months living inside. And during summer when you want to go out, you can't he said. He told me the schools are the worst in the country and the infrastructure is third world like because of politics and the refusal to fund anything. Again, his words, not mine.
Irony how the transplant to AZ sees it as this fantastic place and a former native has no desire to ever live there again after moving to a virtually opposite climate. He swapped AZ summers for Rochester summers and AZ winters for Rochester winters and prefers Rochester in every way over AZ.
That all depends on where you live in Arizona. Everybody associates Arizona with Phoenix, Tucson or Yuma. Lake Havasu City and Bullhead City are hotter than hell during the summer, a tropical paradise during the winter. Your elevation will determine the climate. Anything below 4500 ft. and it's going to be hot. Anything below 3000 ft. and it will be hotter than hell. We're at 5500 ft. daytime temperatures in the summer are around 85 and at night the low 60's. During the winter we're usually in the low 40's with no humidity and at night we're in the 20's. There are days in the winter when it's in the 50's to low 60's. Because of the low humidity you can usually walk around in a sweatshirt. We get occasional snowfall but it only sticks round for a day maybe two. Flagstaff at 7500 ft. is even colder. Daytime temperatures in the summers there are in the 70's. During the winter teens and 20's with significant amounts of snow. But you do not have to take my word for it all this information is available from the national weather service.
It doesn't sound like your co-worker got around the state too often. Hell there are people that live in NYC and it's metro area that have no idea where upstate is. Some even consider Westchester to be upstate. As far as the Catskill's or Adirondack's go that may as well be in Canada.
The schools are not an issue for us as we don't have children. The teachers are not well paid, I can tell you that, about $35,000 to $40,000 a year. I know people that have children and in spite of that still go on to college and lead productive lives.
Third world infrastructure? I don't know about that? The roads are in much better shape than New York's because we don't have a harsh winter. Plows and road salt do a lot of damage to the roads back in the northeast. At least where I am they're always maintaining the roads and there are very few pot holes. Not too much litter either. We have city water and it's never been interrupted. Same for our gas and electric service. We work from home and our internet service is comparable to what we had in New York. Police and fire response time is about the same too. They have late model vehicles and equipment. There are some pretty remote places out here, obviously the quality of these services depends on where you live. This holds true for many places in upstate New York as well. I'm guessing that your co-worker votes Democrat? They are usually always complaining about the lack of funding for anything. That being the case New York is indeed the place for them.
Overall I've yet to hear too many people complaining about life here in Arizona. Those that do probably don't belong here such as your co-worker. To his/her credit they got out of here just as we did in New York. That's what's great about this great big wonderful country there's a place for just about everyone. Your co-worker found their paradise and we have found ours.
Last edited by Ex New Yorker; 07-29-2017 at 08:53 PM..
That's because a lot of it is. Especially in places where manufacturing has packed up and left. Then there's a lot of it that resembles Norman Rockwell's America. Quaint little towns that you'd find on a post card.
There's a lot of places out here too that are economically depressed but they always were. Most are on Indian reservations. There was never any manufacturing or middle class jobs to begin with. One of the worst places we've been to was near Las Vegas, New Mexico. Which has some of the most deplorable living conditions imaginable at least from what we saw from the train. That's one thing about rail travel you get to see a lot more than what you see from driving on the highway. We've done both.
A lot of upstate, which he called "upper" NY isn't as well. So, it varies like other states.
I honestly think he's just not that familiar with that region of the state.
Overall I've yet to hear too many people complaining about life here in Arizona. Those that do probably don't belong here such as your co-worker. To his/her credit they got out of here just as we did in New York. That's what's great about this great big wonderful country there's a place for just about everyone. Your co-worker found their paradise and we have found ours.
And that is precisely my point. To make a generalized statement about Rochester being so "depressed", "dreary", "nobody would want to live here or vacation here" is just simply ignorant. Whatever your opinion of Rochester (which I don't really believe you know very much about contrary to your statement of travelling all over NY), or your opinion of NY state as a whole, to generalize an opinion is ignorant. You seem to get annoyed when it's pointed out how hot and brown Phoenix is, yet you apply these same generalizations across cities in NY.
Rochester is not "depressed, dismal, dark and dreary". People do visit Rochester on vacations, the Rochester Jazz Festival draws 200,000, the Lilac Festival draws 600,000, the Strong Museum of Play draws 500,000 and is planning a massive expansion building a Hotel, a new street for retail and a new expansion for the Video Game Hall of Fame to complement their Toy Hall of Fame. The Finger Lakes are a vacation spot for wine tours and vacations. And many of those do travel from out of the state for them.
Oh and people do even move here from Arizona. I mentioned my co-worker. But I haven't also mentioned my new neighbor who just bought a house next to me and is moving here from Arizona after having moved from Buffalo to Arizona, and is now on their way to moving back to NY and Rochester.
Albuquerque is one of the most dangerous cities in the US.
I live in Albuquerque for decades now and I grew up in the worst part of Westchester (in a decent neighborhood, though) and I still spend 3-4 months of the year there as my work allows.
If Albuquerque is one of the most dangerous cities in the US, then New York State is a cherry pie with whipped cream on top.
I love NY. The governance and nanny stateism are over the top, I'll admit, but I'd live there again. I am not bitter or anything. Everything is a tradeoff. Hell, I'd even live in a nicer part of the Town of Newburgh or Peekskill. Of course living on the mean streets of Albuquerque has toughened me :-)
Did any of you whiners consider that one reason there are higher taxes in NY is because of the non union south along with all of their non existing programs to take care of the poor due to the lower wages (one state still shows a minimum wage of around $5/hr)? And there there is the still long standing, not openly talked about, southern bigotry.
Oh, all of those companies that headed south, how many are still actually there? Most of them left for overseas or south of the border. Now, what/who are you going to blame now? Unions again?
Get over it, if all corporations/companies would pay a living wage, and treat employees properly, there wouldn't be a need for a union in the 1st place. But, you white collar middle & upper management six figure income wouldn't really know any of that (even thou you think you do).
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