If Empire Service trains went to Long Island, what level of frequency and ridership would you expect? (New York: how much, transfer)
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Let's say things keep getting more settled and we move on from the pandemic and the LIRR third track and modernization finish up. What do you think then would be the appetite in NYS for extending at least some of the Empire Service trains out to Long Island?
Currently, these trains terminate at the southern end in NYC Penn Station and coming in from the "west" of the station via Amtrak's Empire Connection. Penn Station's pretty tight so it's a bit of a maneuver and logistics feat to have that come in and back out as opposed to just going through the tunnel under Manhattan and the East River and out to Long Island where they may be more space to back out. The Empire Service also doesn't quite live up to its name of servicing the entire Empire State (well, still missing the Southern Tier even with this) as Long Island has quite a bit of the population of New York State. There are of course some things that would need to be adjusted to make this service possible such as rolling stock that can take advantage of the electrification out on Long Island that's different from that between NYC and Albany among many other things that would take some time and resources, but they don't seem to be insurmountable (though if you know better, please mention why; is there a massive loading gauge difference I'm unaware of? Something else?).
With that, I think having some of the Empire Service trains extended out to Greenport and/or Montauk as through-running express trains would be interesting (maybe other stations/branches on special occasions). What are your thoughts on this?
A question some may ask is if the Long Island Railroad would be a viable option now? If not, could it be, if the infrastructure was expanded?
I'm curious about that myself. I know that there's a pretty significant fall in traffic during rather small peak windows in specific directions on weekdays, so there's certainly capacity at times and there will be more with the third track expansion. Ostensibly if there's a desire for service during peak times, then perhaps a cross-honored fare for specific segments could work though not necessary. I also know that there are differences in electrification for LIRR and the segment going north, but there are rolling stock made to handle different electrification systems. The tracks are definitely standard gauge. I'm just not sure if there are some larger specific issues, and so one thing I'm not sure about is loading gauge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotkarl
Terrible idea.
Sure, but what are the issues that make it a terrible idea?
^I think the viability of using rail from NYC to Long Island will play a big part in terms of the possibility of people making that trip. Some may think it is better to fly, then take rail from NYC to get to Long Island or just drive.
I'm curious about that myself. I know that there's a pretty significant fall in traffic during rather small peak windows in specific directions on weekdays, so there's certainly capacity at times and there will be more with the third track expansion. Ostensibly if there's a desire for service during peak times, then perhaps a cross-honored fare for specific segments could work though not necessary. I also know that there are differences in electrification for LIRR and the segment going north, but there are rolling stock made to handle different electrification systems. The tracks are definitely standard gauge. I'm just not sure if there are some larger specific issues, and so one thing I'm not sure about is loading gauge.
Sure, but what are the issues that make it a terrible idea?
Well, it also encourages people to travel south (to Long Island) as well from other parts of the state.
The argument would be that if there are tourism dollars to be spent by people in the state, then it might be good to have them spend it within the state. Another is to make it somewhat easier for people to travel within the state for conventions, job interviews, family visits, client meetings, and going to college and so making it easier to do by rail can help with facilitating these things without further clogging up the pretty dreadful traffic that the Tri-State area which can be a deterrent and is time consuming in a way that traveling by rail where you don't need to be paying attention to the road isn't.
A lot of the actual hard infrastructure is already in place and more of it will be with the third track that LIRR is currently putting in (along with more grade crossing removals). The capacity was built out for greater peak capacity, but that peak capacity is/was/will be utilized for only small time windows in peak direction. In that sense, it's also better effective use of funding already committed to these tracks and stations. A good thing is that at least the rail gauge is standard on both. I think even the electrification for both are similar in both being 750 DC third rail, but with the shoe being different so rolling stock might need some changes (or the more expensive standardization of the actual electrification itself). What I don't recall is if the loading gauge for both is the same. Separately, depending on how the fare operations are managed, it might also allow for one seat commutes from Westchester/Hudson Valley to Long Island (including Brooklyn and Queens) and vice versa without a transfer in Manhattan.
I can't imagine that there is demand for train service from Hudson Valley to Long Island or the reverse.
Yea, that's a big part of the question. Empire Service is among the most frequently used non-commuter rail services in the US (and beats out some commuter rail services in the US as well). That terminates at Penn Station, but it doesn't necessarily have to. I'd be curious to know what the linked trips from Penn Station onward is and how much of that goes into Long Island or the borough of Queens on Long Island as a kind of baseline metric for existing ridership though with a one-seat service going up and down, then there's also the factor of how many new trips that this creates.
The other part of the question is the cost, but it would seemingly be a relatively low barrier given that much of the tracks, electrification (if you can take advantage of it), and stations are already in existence. Other other nice thing about this is that it's also potentially operationally more efficient as through-running rather than terminating and backing out in an already crowded station and interlockings.
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