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Yeah my family is pretty much "malignant narcissist-arama. There are so many of them. My father is one who literally will not let anyone talk except him, one sister talks non-stop as one would in a marathon therapy session, scarcely coming up for air, sometimes it's hard to know how she breaths. If someone changes the subject to something neutral and not "Lizocentric", she becomes panicked and enraged.
The younger one is mean and flamboyant and really horrible if the spotlight is not focused on her. She has four children and only the youngest, the eleven year old speaks to her. I enjoy a good relationship with my niece and two nephews. They are nice teens and young adults. They had to grow up too fast, unfortunatly.
She calls me every now and then to try to get back into my life but I'm calm and firm, The answer is always "no". After she is told that again, she promptly flies into a narcissistic rage, ahe calls repeatedly the land line and every cell phone in the house.
The way she has treated her older children is just horrible, throwing them out, ruining their credit - or attempting to and stealing their inheritance. She used to be able to charm me a fool me that she has changed. Within 6 months she would invariably ask me for something that I could not do, and turn against me.Estranfed for a few months and then repete.
Kind of an old thread but I had an "experience" recently with my mother that illustrates, I think, narcissistic behavior.
My mother (she is 70) lives about an hour from me and we "talk" via email and Facebook but we only see her maybe 3 or 4 times a year, by choice, because she makes everyone miserable. So that's the background to this conversation/situation. We have contact but it is limited, especially the face to face contact since that is usually what ends up in an awful awful fight. I cannot seem to be around her in person for more than 24 hours so we just try and keep the distance.
She has a friend that was formerly her neighbor and they chat often. Well, this friend tried to get in touch with her a couple days ago and my mother was not answering email or her house phone or cell phone. So the friend messaged me through Facebook, worried about my mother, and asking if I'd talked to her. I wrote back telling her that I had received emails from her around 2pm that day (I had) and it was about 3:00 at the time, and told her I'd let her know she was trying to get in touch.
So I email my mother: "Hey, mom, your friend so and so is worried because you haven't answered her email or answered your phones, you should get in touch with her..."
My mother is really bad about losing her phone, or forgetting to charge it, and she NEVER answers the house phone, just lets the machine get it. She also drinks and as a result frequently "naps" in the living room with the TV blaring, or else she putters around outside with her plants. Not answering the phone all day is normal and sometimes she doesn't get on the computer for a few days at a time as well. No big cause for concern at any rate.
So you'd think she'd reply to me with something like "Okay, thanks for letting me know".. normal response, right? But ohhhh no. This is cause for a complete reaming of me on her part. This is (summarized and cleaned up, she LOVES to use bold, underline, excessive punctuation and many elipses) what I get back from her (after midnight):
Quote:
I hope you responded to her, but then, what would you know?? Unless I had died or was in a hospital and even then only if my neighbor knew and called you, IF she had the right phone number [she is convinced I change my phone number "all the time" because I changed it once, this year, and she got very very upset because I posted a FB status updated about it and did not message her privately FIRST before telling everyone else]. I suspect you get my point. I just wish you cared.
But, thanks for letting me know that MY FRIEND was concerned about me. That is NICE and it means a lot to me that SHE cares enough to worry if she doesn't hear from me.
It is just not right, and it is not how it is supposed to be with one's mother, daughter, or son. The message you sent me was at 1:45 PM. It is now 12:29A.M. That's aLONG TIME to not know if a family member is okay or not!!
So basically she turned it into one of those "I could be dead with the cats eating my remains" emails. And also went on to accuse me of "never answering her emails" even though she and I had been chatting back and forth all week and I'd sent her three emails before that one about whatever stuff she was on about that day (government conspiracies, how someone "wronged" her, etc).
And apparently I am supposed to check with her every what.. ? 12 hours? 8? lest I be accused of not caring.
Just venting I guess.
Earlier in this thread though someone talked about how starting fights before big events is common and I was curious about this. I didn't even recognize it as her pattern until this past year but yeah, she is doing just that. Her birthday is next week. And Mother's day, the night before she sent me a four part text message chewing me out about something she thought I should have done differently.. and Christmas, the same thing. This almost always ends with us not getting together or even speaking on said holiday and then it is followed by her telling everyone who will listen how she was "all alone on Christmas" or whatever.
They can always be counted on to react in a surprising way.
My parents and I have "tension" about communication. They have all these rules about when and how to reach them, yet they say, "you're so busy we never know when is a good time to call you. So we are going to let you call when it's best for you."
Problem is they still have expectations about when they should hear from me, and I end up paying for it if I don't read their minds.
So your mom looks at the world in terms of how it and everyone in it affects HER, with never a care for how SHE might affect others. That's what my folks do. Expectations and communication of them are land mines with narcissists. You will never "win" because they set up the game and change the rules along the way.
I have to admit, I had a rough childhood. My father passed when I was 5, my half brothers died in an accident when I was 12, and it was just me and my mom after that.
Over all, life has been good to me, but my mother has two sisters, both of whom are clearly narcissistic and honestly, I see narcissism in my mother as well but it isn't as bad as her sisters.
They are from a wealthy South American family, but according to each of them had barely no parenting because Grandma admitted she never wanted children. This is why I believe they are all narcissist, especially the oldest one.
These people only call me when they need something from me, be it a car ride or whatever. One of them even talks **** about my mother to me constantly. She has even told me that my other aunt probably doesn't want her daughter to be close to me because she thinks I'm a S L U T. She said this with a smile.
I also have a cousin who is 30 (I'm 23) and her husband is 43. She has had plastic surgery and is very insecure. One day she accused her husband of having an affair with me. She told the whole family, and I was left looking like a black sheep. I never slept with him, and I have never even been alone with him before. He was 40 and I was 20 at the time and I would NEVER sleep with a married man. This ruined my relationship with a handful of my relatives, although her own father and brother apologized to me and said she was just jealous of me. They also said that no one really believed her. It still has ruined my relationship with at least 4 cousins.
I guess I'm starting this thread to hear of other people's experiences with toxic family members, especially narcissists.
I'm a total black sheep in the family, and I'm not sure why. I never show cleavage and I have had the same boyfriend for years. I honestly think the family members who have called me a "****" or who plain just don't like me are jealous of me because I'm the prettiest out of my generation in our family.
I know that sounds narcissistic but I have been hearing it my whole life from my Grandmother, mother, and my aunt who only has sons. I'm not a 10, but I have always been the "pretty one" in my family.
It's funny because I have a full-scholarship because of how broke I am and have been working as a waitress and bartender since I was 17 to put myself through college because my mom spent my college fund at Bloomingdales and the only things these people can tell me about myself or my mother are negative.
I was told I was wasting my time in Florida and that's why it took me so long to get through college by one of these aunts. Actually, I was forced to take a year off because my mother injured her foot and I had to driver her everywhere for a year and had no money to go to school.
I also need to learn how to cope with these people. My mother forces me to stay in contact with these aunts and every time I have to see either of them it just ruins my day because they are negative, manipulative, and downright evil.
Here are some links that may be helpful
I guess the point of this is:
Do you have family that has personality disorders that have harmed/abused you in anyway?
How did you get over the resentment and pain?
How do you cope with being forced to keep them in your life and do them favors all the time?
You did have a rough childhood. I am so sorry for the loss of your half brothers, even though it was a long time ago. It must have been a real shock and very difficult for your mother and you.
Anyway, on to the topic at hand.
I have a brother who has a diagnosed personality disorder. True narcissism falls under the category of Cluster B personality disorders:
He is currently in jail because he went on a crazed rampage of destruction on my parents' property when he got off his meds and was faced with tough love from his soon to be ex wife as well as my parents (I had already implemented tough love with him two decades earlier!). He absolutely destroyed quite a bit of property, as well as breaking and entering a rent house on the property and threatening the renter at 3 am.
He has never - NEVER - had the slightest respect for, or even the concept of, personal boundaries. His sense of entitlement knows no bounds. He was furious because my parents wouldn't let him move into the property (rent free of course) and just live there - no job, no prospects of a job - and do his usual substance abuse 24/7.
He couldn't understand why not - since of course everything they own belongs to him, right? He used to think that everything I owned belonged to him as well, but I was able to establish boundaries with him.
But let me explain what that means. All it really means is that for decades I have had very limited interaction with him. I had to clarify my personal boundaries and stick with them. There had to be instant ramifications for him if he overstepped those boundaries. In fact, I've called the police on him twice, and one of those times he was charged with public intoxication and was told if he came on my property again it would be considered criminal trespass.
So you can imagine that we don't have a very close relationship. It took my enabling parents a lot longer to figure out that they simply MUST, for their own sanity, put limitations on his access into their lives. See, he will just take whatever he wants (how can it be stealing, if it belongs to him by right anyway?). He has no interest in anything that's happening in the lives of others, except to see how it may benefit him.
I had to clearly define my personal parameters - with him and with my parents. This was difficult because it entailed "making a scene" several times at family gatherings - in other words, getting up and packing up my stuff and my kids and simply leaving. It got to the point where I would simply not allow him into my house, and I also would leave if my parents allowed him to start drinking during his visits (holidays for instance). I had to call the police on him. I met with his wife and begged her to enforce parameters - in other words, face his mental illness (he is also bipolar, apparently, and paranoid as hell) and get him the treatment he needed - and I would help her if she wanted. She refused (they're divorced now - no surprise there).
I was very consistent in my assessment of him through the years (it took awhile for his life to unravel and he had my parents hoodwinked for about ten years). Even though it caused problems sometimes with my parents, I felt that they were basically intelligent and would eventually realize the severity of what was going on, and would then need my help in establishing their own parameters. And sure enough, about ten years ago, the tide of entitlement and enabling turned and they decided to get tougher with him.
And all hell broke loose.
Funny thing is, though this has been hard on my parents, and me - our family in general - he simply could not be allowed to continue to abuse others - or himself, at least not on my parents' dime or property. Since my parents' concept of personal boundaries wasn't much better than his (though they don't have personality disorders!), this was tough for them. I am not bragging, but I am not sure they could have withstood his incessant demands without me backing them up for strength. Of course, you can imagine how he hates me now. I am a serious impediment to his goals. Because of him, I had to install a state of the art security system. When he gets out of jail (probably within a few months), I will have to get a restraining order against him, and my parents are going to have to do the same, unfortunately. This is very hard for them to do. But they can FINALLY see what lengths he will go to when his goals are frustrated. They finally realize that it's a matter of self preservation.
Establish your parameters. Then stick to them. Do not let these people steal your joy or make you angry. Leave before you get mad - leave the minute they overstep the healthy boundaries you set. Do not raise your voice, cry, or whatever. Maintain your dignity, no matter what. Your other family members may be upset at first, but don't let that stop you. Limit your interactions with them, even in the homes of others. Make your boundaries clear BEFORE a situation arises, so no one is surprised.
Frankly, I doubt that you will ever be able to foster a feeling of love or affection from these dysfunctional people - which is always saddening. BUT - I promise you they will at least respect your boundaries - after awhile. If not, so what - you're not going to put yourself around them if they don't, right? No one is forcing you to be around them.
And the other family members may squawk at first, but if they're not crazy themselves, they'll come around eventually. And if they ARE crazy or dysfunctional, you don't care what crazy people think anyway, right?
Good luck. Message me if you have any other questions. I'll help all I can.
You can't make them understand. But why is that? What have they said? You said you assume it is because they think you're cold or not family oriented, is that coming from your own guilt or from them?
I suspect, based on what you have shared, that your family has conditioned you to question yourself and your loyalties. You can never do enough, maybe? You have to break out of that pattern of thinking. Turn the tables. Have they been loyal to you? If someone can kick you to the curb that easily, regularly threaten to do so, and take it back (because they would be losing a plentiful source of narcissistic supply, no doubt), is that loyalty?
Regardless, many people won't understand. You have to accept that. N's are so over the top that it seem to be, to a lot of folks, inconceivable. But you can't do anything about that.
What you can do is start expecting more of those around you. When someone truly knows you and loves you, they will respect your feelings and support them. They will believe you. When you have healthy relationships, they expect as much for you as they would for themselves. You won't have the issues you are having now. Examine those relationships.
My brother and sister and I have gone this route a few times. I didn't speak to my mom for a couple of years. My brother told me she was set in her ways and I just had to accept it...."She's your mother". I told him I am her daughter. That is no less important or significant. And I don't have to accept anything. My existence, while not to her approval, wasn't damaging to hers. She needed someone to dump on and, admittedly, I was a good candidate. But she was literally toxic to mine. We now have a great relationship, but the changes had to come from her. And they did.
We have a sister that I no longer speak to, my brother avoids her and my sister tolerates her, at best (my mother created that monster). But they are both very forgiving, to a fault....as I used to be, so I understand it. But I draw the line with anyone trying to come in between me and my son. Same conversation. "Just ignore her." "But she's your SISTER". Again, it's a two way street. I've been ignoring her for over 6 years. My life is better without her in it. It still hurts, but much, much less painful than having her around. I love her. I always will. But, contrary to popular belief, I can choose my family. And I am just fine with the family I have. They more than make up.
Great post.
My mother has some emotional issues stemming from a very bad childhood, that she has never addressed. She played a very large part in my brother's issues because she catered to him and was like a mama she wolf when it came to protecting his interests. See, she THOUGHT he loved her, but he was just playing her, for decades. My father and I could see this. The difference was, that I stood up against it and my dad avoided fighting with her - thus playing a passive role in my brother's problems. In my opinion, he should have stood up many, many years ago - he is an emotionally healthy person. But he didn't want to fight my mother AND my brother - and since I'm a rational, calm sort of person who doesn't hold a grudge, he had less to lose by going against my advice. At least, that's how I see it.
So...it took two decades of me being firm (and angering my mother and my brother), and my dad straddling the fence and talking out of both sides of his mouth, for all this to come to a head. Like I said earlier, about ten years (TEN YEARS!) into this thing, both of my parents began to actually take firmer action against the trespasses of my brother, but it took another ten years for them to present a united front - and to eventually admit that I was right and they had mishandled his abuse for decades.
So - a person who is going to take a tough stand has to realize that it may be years, decades, or NEVER, for their other relatives to understand what they're doing and why. They may NEVER support it. Interpersonal relationships are very complex and we don't all get to the same spot at the same time, so it's not reasonable or even fair to expect others to fall into line once we've had our own epiphany.
I went nearly two years without talking to my mom once in this whole fiasco - and talking only very rarely to my dad - in a firm manner. I had to let him know that I also didn't appreciate HIM throwing me under the bus just because I was the rational, low maintenance person in the whole lot. I was being penalized for being normal - he knew that my mother or brother would pitch a wall eyed, all out fit and make him pay dearly for crossing them - but he counted on my grace and forgiveness. Well, I got tired of that too.
Finally at about age 45 for me (35 for my brother and seventies for my parents), some healthier patterns began to be established and stuck to by everyone but my brother. Even today, my mother weakens often, but at least now my dad has learned to bolster her strength and support better decisions about my brother - which is what he did NOT do for many years. He would just escape into work or hobbies while Rome burned around him, with my mother handing my brother the matches and gasoline. At least FINALLY this cycle is broken! Very hard work but well worth it. I love my parents very much and am glad that we were able to salvage our relationship in the midst of all this. It's been well worth the effort.
I see a recurring thread through these discussion about narcissists and other toxic people. Often I hear people say, "Cut them off entirely!" or "You're better off without them in your life!"
I think we need to be careful with such casual assessments. I have learned, in my interaction with my parents and my brother, that there are DEGREES of dysfunction. Some levels are intolerable, inexcusable, and totally unacceptable. Others - not so much. None of us are perfect and completely healthy emotionally -ESPECIALLY if we've grown up in a dysfunctional family like so many of us who have dealt with family members with personality disorders.
I am glad that I didn't throw my relationship with my parents away. I was tempted to at times. But I am so glad I didn't.
I encourage others to do this:
1. Establish your own healthy boundaries.
2. Clarify these calmly to others. Let them know the ramifications if they overstep these boundaries. And be reasonable. Don't say, "If you call me again at 3 am on a tirade, I will never talk to you again!" That's not reasonable. What IS reasonable is to tell them, "I am turning my phone off at night. I do not answer my phone between 8 pm and 8 am." (or whatever) Tell them, "I want to have positive conversations with you. If you begin to yell at me (or whatever it is they do), I am going to end the conversation." Then follow through - CALMLY AND WITH DIGNITY.
3. You have to work to keep these boundaries in place. It may take YEARS to "retrain" others - but keep in mind that they are used to these dynamics and are more comfortable in them than they are trying to learn new ones. You may find that you are part of the problem - that it's difficult to be calm, to be proactive rather than reactive, to actually follow through with your tough love.
4. If you are honest, you will probably see that your own actions have played a role in this dysfunction as well. YOU HAVE TO FIX YOURSELF TOO - you can't just be tough on everyone else but ignore your own issues!
Love is the key. Real love, not romantic or unrealistic love. Love that is strong, gracious, forgiving, and wise. It is possible to love people dearly, while still being firm with them. Treat others as you want to be treated. This does NOT mean being a pushover, or a whipping boy, but it does mean that you don't harshly judge them or be rude or thoughtless to them.
If you follow these guidelines, I believe you will find that some of these people come around - and that you can enjoy a meaningful relationship with them down the road. This is a treasure worth seeking. Some of the most profound relationships are built on hard ground.
They can always be counted on to react in a surprising way.
My parents and I have "tension" about communication. They have all these rules about when and how to reach them, yet they say, "you're so busy we never know when is a good time to call you. So we are going to let you call when it's best for you."
Problem is they still have expectations about when they should hear from me, and I end up paying for it if I don't read their minds.
So your mom looks at the world in terms of how it and everyone in it affects HER, with never a care for how SHE might affect others. That's what my folks do. Expectations and communication of them are land mines with narcissists. You will never "win" because they set up the game and change the rules along the way.
Something ironic, and hilarious (when I can distance myself) is that one of my mother's favorite phrases to use with me is "I can NEVER win with you! I give up!"
I never know what I didn't do "right" with her.
I never answer her texts, emails, etc "fast enough". She will make a federal case out of people ignoring her Facebook status updates. She will repeatedly point out how I didn't answer this or that text or email and use that as proof that I "never answer her", even if I respond to 10 out of 12 emails that day. Talk about never being able to win!
She sent me a snail mail letter recently, and kept asking me via email if I'd received it. I can't tell you how many times I avoided the mailbox! Snail mail from her is usually Very Bad. For some reason she will hand write ten pages of your faults every year or so. For along time I just tore them up, unread. This recent one was just a few papers and things she'd found from my childhood though, completely benign, and it is sick how sick I was worrying about it!
I think what is happening with her is that she is realizing that for the longest time, none of us visited her to see her, but to see my Grandmother (her mom) who she cared for and lived with. My Grandma died in 2011 and now everyone keeps their distance and it is sinking in for her. I have told her flat out that she is extremely unpleasant to be around and detailed WHY and she just turns it around or turns it in to a sarcastic "Well I am sorry that I am such a horrible mother!!"
She continually refers to me as "the daughter I USED to have" or else a very sarcastic "Daughter Dear", "Daughter of mine".
I do feel so conflicted with her. She is intolerable, and she walks all over any boundaries set. I have no desire to be around her but she is my mother and I feel a sense of responsibility. I also remember her from the perspective of being a young child and there are good memories. It is hard for me to believe she doesn't love other people, as is often said about narcissists. On the other hand I DO see a clear pattern, where she was loving and fun and "nice" as long as I was just an extension of her and when I tried to be my own person is when the "other mother" surfaced, starting when I was a teen.
What's really funny is that she always accused my father of the same thing. She used to say "Oh he is fine with kids, until they become independent or think for themselves.." and really, I didn't see that at all with him. She's describing herself! It just took me a long time to figure it out and part of me is still stuck mentally in the frame of mind of the little girl who had a nice mom, wondering where she went.
I have, in the past, cut off all contact and it has resulted in the most stress-free, happy periods of my life. It was easier then though because she had other people around. Now she has no one close by, her brother lives far away and keeps his distance because his wife and my mother HATE each other. My brother is in prison. My Grandma died. It's just me, and no matter how awful she is I feel obligated. I dread the day she cannot live alone. Every day I find myself wishing she'd had more kids! Or a husband, boyfriend.. anyone but ME!
I honestly don't think this can be "fixed" because she does not see anything wrong with herself. It is everyone else's fault that no one wants to be around her. We are all ingrates who have "abandoned" her. Everything is always everyone else's fault. I can count on one hand the number of apologies received by my mother in my lifetime that actually seemed genuine and not "I'm sorry YOU feel that way" or "I am sorry you had the world's worst mother!" -- she is 70 and she drinks on top of all this, and refuses to consider that she may have some issues that need addressing, so I don't hold out hope for any sort of normal relationship with her before she dies. (Another favorite of hers: "You'll be sorry when I am DEAD for how you treated me!")
Wow, I'm starting to think we have the same mom ... LOL
Funny, but not really.
I always wonder what I will do that my kids will ***** about.
I was about to post the same as you. I feel like I am reading about my own mother here.
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but I have been hearing it my whole life from my Grandmother, mother, and my aunt who only has sons. I'm not a 10, but I have always been the "pretty one" in my family. 
Or a husband, boyfriend.. anyone but ME! 
