Dilemma With Police/Neighbour (influenced, feel, person, member)

[Faworki1947]

@ Minnesota Nice: yep your right there is a real problem with the police here .. .. and they do use lies and unfair tactics when dealing with the local ethnic community .. Your English seems very good on the board so I am guessing your American but you live in a ethnic neighborhood and you ARE judged for that .. I suggest you get a lawyer and protest this trash the house mentality ..

@ the rest of you.. this is the new America .. the cops in some areas of MSP are hard edged and racially profile against SOME religions, SOME minorities and the homeless/poor. Its rude and nasty to be judged by religion or color or property. but its done and its done ugly. Living alone is a sure way to be victimized.. especially in high profiled area.. yeh some of the MSP finest are racist and trigger happy.

I live in Minnesota .. I moved out of the MSP area when the police started to become so heavy handed .. and altho I feel safer in my small town where the local cops know everyone by sight .. it just takes one trigger happy angry cop to cause a tragedy.... THATS a reality of this day and age ..

[shyguylh]

Originally Posted by kelly237

Not even close to correct.

Well I sure hope that it IS correct. I would at the very least say "if you want to come in you're going to have to knock down the door because without a warrant I WILL NOT just let you in" and they would have to in fact force their way, and you'd better believe I'd be contacting an attorney the very next day. Not only that "stay over here?" My response "you're not my daddy, I want to sit on the couch, that's where I'm sitting. Don't like it? Eff you."

If that isn't how it is legally, we need to make it be to where it is. This isn't a police state, we do have rights I hope. "They were just doing their job?" In my house frankly I DON'T CARE about someone "doing their job." This is my castle and it's designed around MY comfort, not around the police department's. They don't pay the mortgage so I don't give a snot about them. I'm thinking of Henry Louis Gates in this situation, he was right to not be particularly nice to them once they knew it was his house, and they did "act stupidly" at that point.

[phonelady61]

Okay who is this Kelly person who keeps telling all of us we are wrong . what exp do you have Kelly ? me I have over 20 years with the ada s office in Miami florida . My father worked for the judge advocate generals office after he retired from the marine corp . My grandfather was a judge in a small town in Indiana and the smartest person I ever knew . So please stop saying that what we have said is wrong , if you think you know better then please give us your reasoning as to why you say we who said no warrant no entry are wrong . Frankly I think you did that just to get a rise out of someone .

[phonelady61]

Originally Posted by shyguylh

Well I sure hope that it IS correct. I would at the very least say "if you want to come in you're going to have to knock down the door because without a warrant I WILL NOT just let you in" and they would have to in fact force their way, and you'd better believe I'd be contacting an attorney the very next day. Not only that "stay over here?" My response "you're not my daddy, I want to sit on the couch, that's where I'm sitting. Don't like it? Eff you."

If that isn't how it is legally, we need to make it be to where it is. This isn't a police state, we do have rights I hope. "They were just doing their job?" In my house frankly I DON'T CARE about someone "doing their job." This is my castle and it's designed around MY comfort, not around the police department's. They don't pay the mortgage so I don't give a snot about them. I'm thinking of Henry Louis Gates in this situation, he was right to not be particularly nice to them once they knew it was his house, and they did "act stupidly" at that point.

Exactly far too many people act like sheep in this country and they act like they are scared of the police . I
encourage people to video when you get stopped by a police officer as well .you have to defend yourself in this country because it is to a point you cannot really trust anyone else to look out for you . I'm with you on this whole thing .

[Steve McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr_Geek

I'd definitely talk to a lawyer about your options regarding your neighbor harassing you. This is no way to live and they shouldn't get away with it. Your neighbor's harassment could have left you dead if you made on bad move while the police were present.

That's probably what your neighbor was hoping would happen. You should pursue legal action immediately, before things escalate, ending in your demise. Since there's two different city organizations involved in causing you trouble, your state's attorney general might need to get involved. Causing police to go armed and looking for trouble into your home, is not a small matter.

[oldtrader]

When a neighbor reports a gun shot coming from your home, they are going to investigate. They are going in with guns drawn, as they do not have any idea of what they are going to find there.

Of course they are going to hold you out of their search, as they do not know if there is another party in the house with a gun. They don't know if they are going to find a dead body. They are there to determine if there was a gun shot, and if there was, was someone dead or badly wounded. They are going to go through the house, with the possibility there is a shooter with drawn guns ready to shoot. They certainly do not want you in their way if it all goes to hell and there is another shooter. They do not know if there is a dead body, and if you are trying to hide someone you shot.

For all they knew, there could be a dangerous situation and one of them or both of them could be shot at any moment. They did exactly what I would have expected them to do, if I was in the house with a potential shooter, or there was a body and I was the shooter. Until they know there is not a shooter or a body, they don't dare not do what they did.

At no time, if there is a potential for shots being fired, are they going to take a civilian through the house with them. If he is there in a tense situation, they are taking more risk than if they go around the house with you with them. You could be a distraction that could get one or both of them killed.

What you describe is standard operating procedure when a guns shot has been reported. Yes as they are inspecting for another shooter, or a hidden dead body, there is going to be some mess. It was not the police that were in the wrong, as they were doing their job to protect the public. And the reason they were not going to confront the neighbor who made the complaint, is there is always the possibility that he actually thought there was a gun shot due to hearing another neighbors TV with a movie on with a loud gun shot. They would have reported on at the station, with results of their call. If their superiors felt it should be investigated, then a detective would have taken over the investigation.

[SFBayBoomer]

At the very least, I think the OP should get a copy of the phone call made to the police and a full copy of the police report and any supporting notes, evidence, photos, etc. In other words, get copies of everything they have and don't be surprised if there are "mistakes" in the officer's notes that are detrimental to you and supportive of their action. If there are photos, you are entitled to all of them, too. You should get a copy of the officers' body cam footage, and if there is none listed, and the policy happens to be that they are required to wear and use body cams, then that is important to know, too.

You can request these things on your own; however, if you have any difficulties getting absolutely everything, you can request under the Freedom of Information Act and if you aren't successful in either of these ways, then get an attorney to get these for you.

If I were you, I would very much like to hear the official recorded 911 phone call and to see the body cam footage, if it exists.

How did the dispatcher know that the caller was a firefighter and how did they know for a fact that this firefighter knows what a gun shot sounds like and how he was so sure about the location of the shot?

OP, do you have a complete police report (including copy of the recording of the 911 phone call)?

IF the caller called the non-emergency line (or they tell you that is how the call came in and that there is no recording), there is no excuse whatsoever for them being dispatched to your home with guns drawn, handcuffs, ready for a fight, etc. The firefighter who supposedly "knows" all about gun shots, knows that if there was a gunshot nearby that should be a 911 call, not a call to a "buddy" on the force. So really press to get that audio recording.

You list your zip code as 55347, i.e. Eden Prairie, Minnesota.

The charge there for a 911 audio copy is $25, prepaid. See below:

http://www.edenprairie.org/home/showdocument?id=636

[kelly237]

Originally Posted by phonelady61

Okay who is this Kelly person who keeps telling all of us we are wrong . what exp do you have Kelly ? me I have over 20 years with the ada s office in Miami florida . My father worked for the judge advocate generals office after he retired from the marine corp . My grandfather was a judge in a small town in Indiana and the smartest person I ever knew . So please stop saying that what we have said is wrong , if you think you know better then please give us your reasoning as to why you say we who said no warrant no entry are wrong . Frankly I think you did that just to get a rise out of someone .

With all that experience you should know that police can enter without a warrant ..


1)to prevent someone inside from being seriously injured or killed

2) if there is evidence in your home that relates to a serious offense, and they need to find that evidence right away or it might be lost or destroyed.

3) if they are in "hot pursuit" of someone whom they have the authority to arrest.

4)to give emergency aid to someone inside,

5)to protect the life or safety of someone inside if they have a reasonable belief that a life-threatening emergency exists,

6)to protect the life or safety of people in the home if someone heard a gunshot inside,

7)to investigate a 911 telephone call,

8)to help someone who has reported a domestic assault to remove their belongings safely,

9) protect people from injury if the police have reason to suspect that there is a drug laboratory in the house,

10)to help animals in immediate distress because of injury, illness, abuse, or neglect.

11)Under child welfare law, the police can enter your home without a warrant to remove a child if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the child is:
neglected or abused and is "in need of protection", a "runaway" under the age of 16, who was in the care of a children’s aid society, and the child's health or safety might be at risk during the time needed to get a warrant, or under 12 years old and has done something that would be an offense if someone 12 or older had done it.

[shyguylh]

I was reading an article about this and one person basically said that if a policeman/policewoman tried to break into his home without a warrant and he the homeowner had not provided consent for search, he would regard this person as an armed intruder and would take the necessary precautions to protect his life. I say good for him.

This topic has caused me to rethink my feelings on the common and controversial topic of cops shooting dogs. If such a thing happened in the process of this, except for the dog's life being taken I would think it a good thing. I say this because I've noticed that few things get people in agreement about policemen being out-of-line than the prospect of them just bursting into your home and shooting your dog. In that scenario I'm always hearing people speak passionately about how "this is our HOME and this is our dog's HOME you don't just come barging onto my PRIVATE PROPERTY uninvited and shoot my dog like that."

Previously I wasn't that sympathetic to that situation because I think people attach too much importance to their pet and because I don't like the idea of people training dogs to attack that way, after all it could be a family member coming to visit at a weird hour or a confused neighbor who suffers from Dementia, but I may be changing my tune a bit. Such an incident can bring a lot of people onto a homeowner's side and cause the locals to flood the police department's phone lines with complaints, and I say good.

[minnesota nice]

Thank You everyone for all your input on this issue.

I want to say I really appreciate all your thoughts on this matter; it is good to see things from both sides of this issue and helps me better understand this situation and what my options could be. I am also scared and shocked others have experienced similar incidents!

What I would ideally like to do is to write a public message about the Police Station involved for their aggressiveness and lack of professional conduct; as a poster stated, I could have been killed by their actions as they had guns in their hands and they were incredibly forceful.

To compound matters, they are uninterested in investigating the matter because the complainant is a firefighter and the officer lied to protect the complainant's identity; only through the police report did I find out who it was.

I would also like to write a public message to the Minneapolis Fire Department and share my concerns about the conduct of their employee. The police report states that the complainant was vehement about knowing what the sound of a gun is like as he, as a firefighter, "had been shot at" in past, and had his "rig shot at." I feel he abused his position as a firefighter to convince the police that there was a criminal action in my home, and cause malicious harm to me despite knowing that there was nothing of the kind.

I am reluctant to go to the Police Internal Affairs Department though I am considering it. I need to get along with the police and if I ever need their help, I need the police to protect me. If I appear in a negative light with the police, I fear retaliation. I am not sure, however, if I am justified to fear retaliative measures from the police.

Originally Posted by coschristi

I agree with the poster who suggested to CYA with video/audio evidence.

Many counties have neighborhood dispute mediatior that can help with issues such as noise complaints, harrassment, parking problems, code enforcement issues, etc ...The mediation dept is usually associated with & located at the courthouse & they may have some good advice & they will intervene if needed.

You can also file a complaint with the PD Internal Affairs Dept. I was given this advice once after an illegal search & seizure that resulted in my being arrested & booked into jail without option for bond (despite having zero previous offenses). Initially I was very skeptical. I mean; the IA cops are "the cops"; how is that unbiased?

I was wrong & it ended up being the best legal advice ever. And yes; it did come from an attorney. They are "the cops" (detectives, actually) but it's their job to minimize bad press & lawsuits & they were very professional. Once an IA report has been filed it remains as an "open" investigation & any form of police contact that is associated with your name or address is picked up by IA. Cops know this & it is a deterrent to "playing games"; they don't want to be called in unless they were there on legit buisness.

In my case, my arresting officer was found guilty of misconduct. The IA detectives were even able to locate & retrieve some of my property that was never turned in either to evidence or with my personal property at the jail ... because he had taken it HOME !

I do agree that they responded in the approved manner for a call of "shots fired". They can't just take your word for it when there could be an injured person inside your house that is being held against their will. I'm sure this happens frequently with DV calls: "Nope, wasn't me! I'm here alone ..." & then they find someone cowering in a closet who was too afraid to make a peep. If YOU were that person you would want to know that they wouldn't just take someone's word for it!

The issue that you do have a right to be concerned about is that your neighbor may be using his position & contacts to harrass you with city resources & thats an abuse of his status. as well as a drain on resources that are needed elsewhere.

I really appreciate the sharing of your experience. I appreciate seeing things from the perspective of the police. You are correct that the complainant, as stated in the police report, used his position as a firefighter to assert that there was a gunshot coming out of my home.

Originally Posted by ecvMatt

This is known as "swatting", and is illegal, I would find a place to file a complaint, both against your neighbor and the PD

Lots of police are bullies and thugs, they know the badge lets them get away with treating you like this. Again I would complain, both to local media outlets and to the PD internal affairs, they had no right and suspect reason to harass you like this. I absolutely fear my dogs getting shot in a situation just like yours.

My neighbour has moved (a little over a week) but not far, and I still see his vehicle. I am still uncomfortable seeing him around the neighbourhood..

Originally Posted by joe from dayton

Exactly. Based on the report, they could have forced entry under exigent circumstances. If you feel the firefighter made a false complaint against you, I am sure the FD has an internal complaint process.

I wonder how a complaint to the Minneapolis Fire Department may be handled. Although it was after work hours, it is also reflective of an employee's conduct. I am strongly inclined to lodge a complaint with the MFD first.

Originally Posted by Vacanegro

You can't search a home without a warrant unless there is direct visual indication of a crime - which there was none. This was not even a event that could be accurately confirmed nor I imagine could anyone inside a home say definitively where a sound (similar to a gunshot) originated from.

Their threat to break down your door is plain and simple intimidation. Your coercion into consenting into a search could be considered illegal. Also a fireman's word is no more valid in a court of law that that of anyone else. You can file a complaint on the officer's behavior to the police department. This will go into their personnel files and be a ding on them during future evaluations. As for your neighbor - as others say you should see a lawyer AND install a camera - especially knowing that you have someone willing to say such things living near you.

The police are from a smaller suburban community so they did not have body cameras. With their guns drawn and their demands, I did not feel I had a choice but to let them in. I wish I resisted letting them into my home but they were very forceful.

Originally Posted by SUPbud

aaahhhh. very anxious situation, I had a similar experience.

I had a new house alarm system installed, I came home and tried to deactivate the alarm and I basically 'guessed wrong' too many times on the keypad. The system dialed out and called the police. Police showed up within minutes (it was very late at night) (I suppose I should be happy this city has good response time).

there were two officers (that I could see from the front porch). The first guy talking had his gun holstered, because at one point he had a clipboard to take his report, but the guy three steps back and offset had his gun drawn and pointed 3/4 at the ground (which means it was 1/4 pointed at me). I got the same speech that 'they could enter without a warrant' due to the circumstances. Sure, there are times when you want to pull the "show me your warrant" lawyer-speak, but when you got guns pointed at you, your brain has to make split-second decisions about what will keep you alive and what will risk that.

Maybe I'm more generous because I was not shoehorned into the corner and yelled at. Maybe that only happened because it was 2 cops and they had to cover each other and stay with me - Had it been "3" the dynamic is very different (1 is free to abuse you while the other 2 wander your house).

I'm sorry they trashed your house, that was completely unnecessary. I'm not sure there is a easy remediation for that. Even if you took excellent pictures/video of what was damaged, you will need to spend a lot of money for a lawyer to get anywhere. Lawyer is $300/hr... hiring Rosa the cleaning lady is probably cheaper.

I probably will not seek legal action, or at least not through a lawyer. I ideally wish to have a public reprimand of the police involved, especially the one who lied to me, and one of the firefighter neighbour.

Originally Posted by silibran

I think your best option is to see an attorney to find out your options. Be upfront when scheduling your appointment; tell them what your issue is, so they can tell you if their office handles stuff like this. I am not sure what your rights are here, but at the very least your attorney could draft a formal request for a further investigation.

You say the police messed up your house. Have you checked carefully to find out if anything was stolen? Was anything damaged that required repair, or to be discarded? If so, you need to document those.

I am not sure what the police were looking for. My best guess is that they were looking for a victim first. I think they could have ascertained pretty quickly that there was no victim. So, my next guess is that they were looking for drugs.

But I am only guessing. See an attorney. But know beforehand what you want to accomplish. What do you think they owe you? And I'd be interested if they were wearing bodycams too.

I would like them to publicly apologise. That is really all I want and I wish to have either: the affected officers to be publicly reprimanded and/or discharged, especially the one who shouted at me, forced me into a corner and would not let me move in my own home. I would ideally like something similar for the firefighter.

I do not believe anything was stolen but I should check more carefully; I was a bit preoccupied cleaning up. Damage was a dent (metal interior garage) to my door when they pushed it open when I had already opened my door. I don't know if stains on my carpet count.. that may be grasping at straws..

I don't expect a public or even an internal reprimand to occur, however. I am realistic. My next alternative would be to publicly identify the officers and complain to the Minneapolis Fire Department.

Originally Posted by elliedeee

I think you're probably better off by dropping it. You said that neighbor moved so he shouldn't bother you anymore.

The police were only doing their jobs and you were wise to let them in. You've got to understand that when they come into a situation like that they're on high alert because the complainant said he heard gunshots so at that point the cops think you have a gun on the premises. With so many cops getting ambushed lately, the're going to be extra careful for their own safety.
The cops don't know whether you're a bad guy or a good guy or what's going on so that's why they handcuffed you and made you stand where they could see you. For all they knew you could have shot someone out of their immediate view so they had to check the house for a victim and a gun. I know they probably weren't too polite about it, but really they were only doing their job.

If it happens again where your former neighbors turns you in for something.. then you go to a lawyer and press charges against him.

I had cops to my home too because someone called 911 and didn't speak. My husband and I had no idea what they were talking about so we let them in to check around. They explained that since no one spoke it could have been a case of someone being injured or incapacitated in some way. One of them looked over the house while the other one stayed with us. They didn't find anyone of course but then I remembered my phone had the automatic 911 dial button so I opened the laundry closet door and there was my cat sleeping with the phone off the hook. Apparently she stepped on the 911 button.

I think you are right, as well. I probably should drop the matter and thank myself for not getting killed, letting them in and not resisting. That would require the least effort, too..

I am really indignant about being terrorised in my own home, feeling violated and threatened, to the point of feeling unsafe in this city.

Originally Posted by Army_Guy

I would consult an attorney.

Have the attorney file a formal complaint against the department. It's probably not something new with that department. Hiring standards for police have been much lower over the past few years. The best/most qualified candidates are not those who they're looking for. They're looking for "check the box" hires.

The badge and gun seems to give a lot of them bravery they otherwise wouldn't have.

My trust in cops isn't very high for many reasons. I do not blindly support law enforcement like so many do these days.

What can you get out of this? A paper trail. If the attorney asks you what you want, I would say money and not signing any documents agreeing to not disclosing this. Dirty/crooked cops need to find other jobs. The thin blue line exists and I would bet a paycheck they're in the game with fire fighters.

Minnesota has a very poor history of police brutality and the justice system allows them to get away with this. What happened to 2 innocent individuals, being murdered by the police and the justice system permitting it tells us enough.

I am sure the police collaborate with the fire department and that is most likely why they refuse to investigate the matter further, despite my complaints to them about this neighbour in past. I reported the firefighter's disruptive behaviour to the police, nothing happened. Only after reporting disruption to the community association did any action to stop the music at midnight, threatening shouting and parties.

Originally Posted by SFBayBoomer

Stories like yours are very troubling and it is indicative of a systemic problem we have with law enforcement officers now. However, prior to your story, I thought that firefighters were still "the good guys."

I have pretty much given up on the idea that Law Enforcement Officers (LEO'S) are primarily employed to protect US, the public. It used to be so, but that was in the era when local police were required to live in the communities they serve and when they were a smaller force, we got the cream of the crop, those who were most psychologically fit for the job. Much calmer LEO's. Now there are far too many LEO's, and a large majority of them live an hour or more away and when called to a residence or business, they are there to exert control and arrive overly armed and dangerous. Also new recruits are frequently former military, used to being jumpy due to the situations in which they served in wars. There is a cycle now where police shootings have caused some citizens to shoot back and now officers feel they are under fire and don't know who to trust. When they arrive to a supposed "scene", they overreact and come armed for Armageddon. It is frankly very scary.

Some questions:

Is the neighbor (now, fortunately for you, your former neighbor) still employed with the Minneapolis Fire Department?

Was his last loud party (or one that you reported) perhaps his retirement party? If so, and he has moved
away from you, I would just drop it (unless any of your possessions went "missing" after the police searched your house out of your sight).

Have you read Nolo's Neighbor Law book? Your library likely has a copy of it, or you can buy it. It has good advice for you as you move forward with ALL your neighbors.

If you seek counsel, you should talk to a lawyer who specializes in Civil Law and has a reputation for successfully litigating against law enforcement agencies. They would be able to tell you much better than all of us whether you have a case or don't. I have read that the Internal Affairs department will not be of much help, but another poster, above, reports having success with them.

The firefighter is still employed with the Minneapolis Fire Department, since 1996. He isn't of retirement age, I don't believe as he is in his 40's-50's.

I liked your post because it reminded me of a news article I read about how citizens should be responsible for placating aggressive behaviours from officers. Police officers are under intense stress and will react with force. However, it is also argued that we, as citizens, should not need to placate officers. They need to be better trained to handle stressful situations without reacting with excessive force.

They already had guns in their hands. In my case, I don't feel I had a choice but to let them in, despite great reluctance.