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Well I think the ongoing joke is that its ridiculous this area is officially two separate metros in the first place because though it may not be urban, there isn't a whole lot of empty space between the region. If it use to be one metro why isn't it anymore? It's not like the area between Raleigh and Durham got less dense over time lol.
With that said, going back to my original reply of the Triangle being a peer to Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, etc. Raleigh, looking at it individually like the census does, it's more a peer to cities like Richmond, OKC, Memphis, Louisville, Salt Lake City. Viewing it that light, I can't understand how some get so hung up on how tall Raleighs downtown should look as if Raleigh will look like a joke compared to it's peers even though there's like 15+ total towers that have been announced.
Let's break this down with a few examples.
OKC has 6 total towers above 400ft. 19+ above 200ft
Richmond has 3 towers above 400ft. 37 above 200ft
Memphis has 3 towers above 400ft. 18 above 200ft
Louisville has 3 towers above 400ft. 28 above 200ft
Salt Lake City has 2 above 400ft. 27 above 200ft.
Let's say hypothetically Raleigh hits it's stride and the economy doesn't kill all these projects like it did last time we were on the brink of a boom. Just with what's planned.
Raleigh will have 3 towers above 400ft. Potentially 30+ above 200ft.
And who knows what gets proposed between then.
And that's not including Kane's rezoning across the tracks from the Dillon or the S. Saunders vision which both are requesting 20 stories. Not to mention another skyline in North Hills. Even looking at today we're not trailing Memphis that much. And as it's been beaten to death, that's still with a main employment center being RTP all these years and being within a multi modal region. So what are we really talking about here?
I get the desire and benefits of going big and I enjoy a nice skyline as much as the next guy but to act like Raleigh is crippling itself and not daring to go big like every other city does when the reality is we'll have a very competitive looking downtown within a few years, just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when constant efforts are being made to make our downtown perhaps even more desirable and enjoyable at the pedestrian level then some of those older cities, I don't get what's to complain about. More height will come when the need calls for it.
Well I think the ongoing joke is that its ridiculous this area is officially two separate metros in the first place because though it may not be urban, there isn't a whole lot of empty space between the region. If it use to be one metro why isn't it anymore? It's not like the area between Raleigh and Durham got less dense over time lol.
It's still one metro, but it's now designated as a CSA instead of an MSA. The criteria for designating MSAs and CSAs is what caused the change and the land use and commuting patterns in the Triangle resulted in Raleigh and Durham becoming interdependent MSAs within one CSA. Don't take it personally lol; it's just a statistical thing and the Triangle is more of an anomaly in this case.
The reason it was split was because they reframed how they look at commuting patterns. Wake’s population meant it was designated the anchor county but RTP’s location meant that commuters mostly flowed to Durham County instead of the way every other anchored metro works. There is probably more commuting between Wake and Durham than most metro counties, and it’s definitely the largest in the state, but it flows the wrong way so it doesn’t count. Regardless, Durham City bleeds into Raleigh which bleeds into Morrisville. I guess I could see wanting more density there if that’s your thing, but there isn’t much of any difference or tons of empty lots around there.
It's still one metro, but it's now designated as a CSA instead of an MSA. The criteria for designating MSAs and CSAs is what caused the change and the land use and commuting patterns in the Triangle resulted in Raleigh and Durham becoming interdependent MSAs within one CSA. Don't take it personally lol; it's just a statistical thing and the Triangle is more of an anomaly in this case.
Oh yeah I know. It's just funny how it can cause misinterpretations when someone talks about Raleigh yet means the Triangle (like I believe charlotte485 was doing) or someone can talk about Raleigh and literally mean Raleigh metro alone (like raleighmsa was).
I hope NC will still advance in adding new business around the state.
There are many things that attract new business to an area. The Triangle area of NC is great. But it has a long way to have every thing it needs. RDU has to grown and have many destinations. Public transportation IE. Roads, LRT - Computer rail, sport steams are some other things.
The Triangle is a good place but you all know getting around the Triangle can be hard.
The same thing goes for Charlotte, but our needs many different from the Triangle some. Charlotte gains the greats number of people every year in NC, and those people need a place to live which puts a strain on the housing market. Our public transportation is work in progress, but the funding for these projects are hard to get just like other cities in NC.
You can not expect every City in the State of North Carolina to alike. Raleigh and Charlotte are two largest cities in NC but they will never be just alike.
Well I think the ongoing joke is that its ridiculous this area is officially two separate metros in the first place because though it may not be urban, there isn't a whole lot of empty space between the region. If it use to be one metro why isn't it anymore? It's not like the area between Raleigh and Durham got less dense over time lol.
With that said, going back to my original reply of the Triangle being a peer to Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, etc. Raleigh, looking at it individually like the census does, it's more a peer to cities like Richmond, OKC, Memphis, Louisville, Salt Lake City. Viewing it that light, I can't understand how some get so hung up on how tall Raleighs downtown should look as if Raleigh will look like a joke compared to it's peers even though there's like 15+ total towers that have been announced.
Let's break this down with a few examples.
OKC has 6 total towers above 400ft. 19+ above 200ft
Richmond has 3 towers above 400ft. 37 above 200ft
Memphis has 3 towers above 400ft. 18 above 200ft
Louisville has 3 towers above 400ft. 28 above 200ft
Salt Lake City has 2 above 400ft. 27 above 200ft.
Let's say hypothetically Raleigh hits it's stride and the economy doesn't kill all these projects like it did last time we were on the brink of a boom. Just with what's planned.
Raleigh will have 3 towers above 400ft. Potentially 30+ above 200ft.
And who knows what gets proposed between then.
And that's not including Kane's rezoning across the tracks from the Dillon or the S. Saunders vision which both are requesting 20 stories. Not to mention another skyline in North Hills. Even looking at today we're not trailing Memphis that much. And as it's been beaten to death, that's still with a main employment center being RTP all these years and being within a multi modal region. So what are we really talking about here?
I get the desire and benefits of going big and I enjoy a nice skyline as much as the next guy but to act like Raleigh is crippling itself and not daring to go big like every other city does when the reality is we'll have a very competitive looking downtown within a few years, just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when constant efforts are being made to make our downtown perhaps even more desirable and enjoyable at the pedestrian level then some of those older cities, I don't get what's to complain about. More height will come when the need calls for it.
The CSA vs MSA debate still leaves me scratching my head. I gave up a long time ago trying to understand the reasoning, but to be honest with you it doesn't bother me when I think that companies interested to have a presence here look at the big picture and not just one area. Hopefully, they will find a way to reunite the two major MSA's into one. [Edit: Many thanks to the forumers who explained the reasoning for the split.]
Now, forgive me for beating a dead horse, but since I am one of those people who are concerned about the current skyline I think that I need to "defend" my position a little bit. It has been my belief for some time now that in the future we'll have to face some challenges, if we follow the current patterns. Preserving the smaller historic buildings will be much harder, for example. Up until the N&O proposal I didn't allow myself to get mad as much, because I thought that common sense would dictate that at least one high-rise over 400ft would be built on that site, followed in the future by another one at the parcel between Enterprise Rentals and the County Jail. I know that forumers in other blogs keep talking about 40-story buildings all the time, but I want to make clear that asking for the height caps to be pushed to 40 doesn't mean that I expect, or "demand", that future high-rises should be that tall. I just want the city to get out of the way and allow the developers to maximize their investment, as this should be ideal for property tax purposes, too.
With regards to the N&O parcel, the two 20-story residential buildings are fine, as is the 13-story hotel, but I find the 15-story office building insulting. For those who insist on the whole "demand" argument, allow me to mention that we are talking about 1.5 million square feet (for the entire project), plus to offer an alternative for the office building, identical in overall size: 888 Brickell (38 stories/472ft/304,950sf of office space, with ground floor retail & restaurant space; a 264 space parking garage is also included).
I am not saying that the N&O office component has to be 38 floors, but at least 25-30. Personally, I do not care for boxy designs, but in all fairness none of our three tallest buildings looks as boxy as 888 Brickel. It all boils down to the "execution". Even boxy high-rises can look nice sometimes. Also, I am not a big fan of the street-level experience that the above rendering shows, but this is easily fixed. In the N&O case, I am opposed to the alley, which makes the buildings look disconnected and not part of an urban environment. I am surprised that all those who scream about the street-level experience are not up in arms with the current proposal. The residential mid-rises at North Hills East provide a far superior experience in that department. The developers are better off increasing the width of the sidewalks to allow for outdoors seating along McDowell, Salisbury and Martin Streets and bring the buildings a little closer. Or, in the case of the residential components, they can always create something like a 4-6 story "podium" that will take over the corner - much like the One Center City in Durham - and build the residential buildings above that. Anything to make the street-level experience seamless.
One thing that I know this is very subjective, but I want to share my reaction. Calling a 20-story building a "tower" is a bit of a stretch. Several years from now, when our skyline will look flat, those 20-story buildings will have the same effect that all those 10-15 story buildings have today. While I am fine with all those scattered mid-to-high-rise proposals, I do not want to see 3 buildings stick like sore thumbs. Because rest assured, we are not going to see anything over 400ft for the next 10 years. What we will see is monolithic monstrosities that will be taking up entire blocks. In other words, where are we going to build a few "fillers" to make our skyline a little more complete? IMHO, there should be no height limits - or 40 floors, if we absolutely need to have some - for anything developed along these streets and the areas between them: Hillsborough, Wilmington, South and Dawson Streets.
Sorry for bringing back Bellevue, WA, but for a city of 150,000 people it surely impresses with its high-rises:
6 buildings over 400ft
7 buildings between 300ft and 399ft
17 buildings between 200ft and 299ft
Yes, Downtown Raleigh has an impressive number of proposals up to 20 floors and the street-level experience will improve dramatically all over, but the image of our city is going to look really strange without iconic towers. Currently, we have 3 high-rises over 400ft and only 7 buildings over 200ft (one of them in North Hills). With a little cheating we will get our first building in the 300ft-399ft range, although I am still not sure how this will happen with the FNB Tower. As an amateur photographer who has been capturing our progress in urban development and street-level activity for many years, I have found it to be a great challenge to show off the skyline, as of late. I usually laugh when I see comparisons between the skyline from 2008 and today. One building is all that it took to make the big difference: The Dillon. It blocked the view from the Boylan Avenue bridge and made the skyline look fuller. Its impact is better seen from the Dorothea Dix fields. Not to downplay the Rex Hospital and North Hills angles, but if it wasn't for the Hillsborough Street elevation we would be looking hard to locate some of the buildings that are now visible from those angles. The South Saunders Street angle will remain our money shot for many years to come and the changes will be nearly unnoticed to the outsiders. Also, for those who have drones, they should be able to provide better images, since density will matter a lot more than building heights from 600ft above ground.
My apologies for the long post. Please don't mind my enthusiasm and passion, as neither one is meant to bring disagreements. I just think that we can do a lot better and the recipe for success is already out there. Now, if I was looking for a light rail system in Raleigh, it would have been different, since the market is truly not there, but a nicer skyline is possible.
Last edited by raleighmsa; 02-25-2019 at 01:55 PM..
I won't quote all that for sake of the thread lol but I hear what you are saying. We just hold different opinions on the"needs" for DTR I guess. The only thing I really disagree about is that by my count DTR has 16 total buildings over 200ft lol and Bellevue being an outlier example for various reasons. I just don't feel as strongly about it. As long as DTR is growing and doing well, especially at street level, I don't need it to look like Charlotte or whatever other city that gets lots of corporate high rises. For my personal taste I would rather city a core that looks broad and dense and makes me think "wow that looks walkable and interesting for blocks and blocks" rather than "wow I can see the top of that skyline for miles." Not that those are exclusive of course.
For example, I'm sure you saw this already, credit to Jack.
I'm really excited for that. Again for my eyes, that to me is going to make Raleigh look quite large. With still plenty of room to grow and maybe get a couple monsters eventually. Rather than let's say OKC.
Impressive height for sure, but small footprint.
It's fine to have either opinion obviously but for me it's just confusing to bemoan the new N&O site when it looks like it's going to be a gem even if it doesn't scrape the clouds.
Oh yeah I know. It's just funny how it can cause misinterpretations when someone talks about Raleigh yet means the Triangle (like I believe charlotte485 was doing) or someone can talk about Raleigh and literally mean Raleigh metro alone (like raleighmsa was).
Yeah. When I say Raleigh, I mean the entire Triangle. It’s like trying to separate Silicon Valley from San Fran almost. You can’t talk about Raleigh without really mentioning the entire metro. Unless you’re only talking about a certain area, such as downtown. But even then. The macroeconômica of the region directly influence downtown Raleigh.
DTR would be irrelevant, dirtier and not as growing as it is were it not for the strong economics of the region. DTR May not be getting height, but it’s getting high caliber developments, a lot of them. It’s not a “project slugger” type of city. It’s development is impressive and it’s due to the wealth of the region.
Yeah. When I say Raleigh, I mean the entire Triangle. It’s like trying to separate Silicon Valley from San Fran almost. You can’t talk about Raleigh without really mentioning the entire metro. Unless you’re only talking about a certain area, such as downtown. But even then. The macroeconômica of the region directly influence downtown Raleigh.
DTR would be irrelevant, dirtier and not as growing as it is were it not for the strong economics of the region. DTR May not be getting height, but it’s getting high caliber developments, a lot of them. It’s not a “project slugger” type of city. It’s development is impressive and it’s due to the wealth of the region.
I agree and thank you (though I'll separate myself from the project slugger dig lol)
Yeah. When I say Raleigh, I mean the entire Triangle. It’s like trying to separate Silicon Valley from San Fran almost.
When people are talking about the entire Bay Area, it seems that they say the Bay Area and not just San Francisco. Obviously San Francisco is the major urban center of the region but the center of innovation is Silicon Valley where all the tech companies are headquartered and it has a very established and distinct identity within itself, so it seems a bit weird for folks to say San Francisco when they are talking about the entire Bay Area. That's the major difference I see between the Triangle and the Bay Area.
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lol)
