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Restrictive annexation laws really hurt some cities like Richmond during the second half of the 20th century when people were fleeing to the suburbs, but those days have changed. North Carolina cities were VERY fortunate that the restrictive annexation laws were put in place to coincide with a return to the cities and a renewed interest in urban living this century. The national cultural shift has re-energized cities NYC, DC, Miami, SF, and smaller places like Richmond. In the case of Richmond, it shrunk through the 70s, 80s, and 90s as its 50 year population bottomed out in the 2000 Census. Since 2000, its population has all but recovered. What NC's liberal annexation laws allowed NC cities to do is thrive in the age of urban blight/flight by not removing that tax base from the city.
VA does have a unique set-up with its independent cities but in the case of Richmond, racialized local politics played a role in its inability to expand its borders. There was a proposal for the city to merge with neighboring Henrico County in the early 60s but the referendum failed. NC was really blessed to have such liberal annexation laws that didnt require the consent of homeowners, and it was that way long enough for its cities to become quite sizable so that by the time the state legislature put the brakes on it, most of its cities were in pretty good positions.
I guess it’s that time for people to create new accounts to do those routine type of posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeusAV
Agreed, not necessarily on the consolidation as the need for that can vary by metro, but on the issue that metro areas are better off when the core city has a large municipal footprint over tiny, restrictive limits surrounding by unincorporated areas or multiple suburban jurisdictions. One can simply look at the multitude of problems and stagnant growth caused by restrictive annexation policies in similar metros. Wealthy suburbs surrounding poor, hollowed out urban cores don't work out well for the metros as a whole (usually only for those in said suburbs as it allows the use of large city amenities without large city taxes). It also hurts the ability to get large infrastructure/transportation projects built.
Richmond, VA
Norfolk/Hampton Roads, VA
Pretty much VA cities as a whole outside of NoVa.
Columbia, SC
New Orleans, LA
Baltimore, MD
Detroit, MI
Atlanta, GA
St. Louis, MO
etc.
While places like Nashville, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Austin, etc. are thriving and easily get projects approved and built when funding allows so. The majority of exceptions I see to where a major metro with a tiny city limits is thriving is in the case of mega world-class cities like Miami or San Francisco, which I'd say are booming in spite of their tiny city limits rather than part of the reason for it.
Another thing people should pay attention to in regards to city limits boundaries are crime rates. Major cities with small corporate limits like those I mentioned above usually have higher crime rates on paper due to the poorer parts of the metro being isolated to the city limits.
Well stated and was a point I was trying to get across. You stated it better than I.
“Big city amenities without paying big city taxes”.... ugh!
And agreed 100% with rnc2mbfl. Those Annexation laws were incredibly great during the age of white flight to the suburbs.
Its a tale of two states. You either are high growth or low growth...
Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham, Cary, Wilmington and Concord are high growth (lowest is over 16%)
Greensboro, Winston Salem, Fayetteville and High Point are low growth (highest is 10%)
That being said its good to see everyone actually growing. The 2nd 10 is where we see some stagnation.
I wouldn't call 5-10% low growth. Its moderate, paced, not breakneck, but not low...
Once again I find myself defending Fayetteville, which for the last four pages there's been no mention of it, despite still being NC's 6th largest city and more importantly, NC's 6th-largest metro; just for objective comparison from a national viewpoint, Fayetteville city has grown 5.53% in 9 years, greater than many major cities such as NY, LA, Chi, Philly, Det, etc, and outpaces them in metro growth as well...
Let's keep in mind to maintain perspective here. NC has some of the fastest growing municipalities in the nation, but many places being denigrated as "slow growth" here are high growth or higher, comparatively, to many places elsewhere...
Fayetteville continues to exhibit positive growth, particularly on the northern and western extremes of the city...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofaque86
You can fit the entire population of San Francisco in Charlotte’s University Area.
This is nowhere near the truth...
As there is no clear illustration or definition of UCity's boundaries, even if you used the inflated numbers from UC Partners, there is 171,000 people in UCity, roughly 20% of the city of SF...
That number is mega inflated and obviously they are taking into account an area and population that extends beyond the jurisdictional borders if Charlotte, and beyond what is commonly thought of as University City...
You can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but to my knowledge, west of 85 isn't actually "University". The Valley is south of UC Blvd, so at best you can say Tryon/Sandy is the southern point of University. From there you can extend University East to the city limits, which ends about a mile beyond 485 along UC Blvd...
*source, anecdotal as I had a friend who lived in University and hung out at his pad a few times...
Inexact, but the actual area considered University is about a 17m² area bounded by 85 to the west and The Valley to the south, with a population of ~46,000. It's definitely an edge city and is significant, but nowhere comparable to the kind of statement you made in this quote...
Always kinda grinded my gears how these inexact figures for UC have always been floated out there, with no exact explanation ANYWHERE on what they are defining as UC. Directly north/northeast, you're in Concord; directly east you're in Harrisburg; southeast you're in the Reedy Creek area; southwest Hidden Valley; and west of 85 you're in Mallard Creek, Derita, Sugar Creek areas. There are actual established neighborhoods, if not established borders, on the periphery of what is commonly thought of as the University area, so the only way any entity can come up with a dishonest population of 100,000+ is if they are categorizing peripheral areas into UC...
I just wish they'd be honest about it, and either way, while I think UC is a great asset for Clt, it's nowhere near as large as this unbelievable claim you made here. I'm surprised our heady, overzealous resident population on here let you get away with it to be honest, but my guess is non-locals have no idea what is/isn't considered University, and locals such as yourself don't seem to have an interest in looking into it...
It's impossible for SF, literally the same population as the whole city of Clt, to be able to fit into just University...
I wouldn't call 5-10% low growth. Its moderate, paced, not breakneck, but not low...
Once again I find myself defending Fayetteville, which for the last four pages there's been no mention of it, despite still being NC's 6th largest city and more importantly, NC's 6th-largest metro; just for objective comparison from a national viewpoint, Fayetteville city has grown 5.53% in 9 years, greater than many major cities such as NY, LA, Chi, Philly, Det, etc, and outpaces them in metro growth as well...
Let's keep in mind to maintain perspective here. NC has some of the fastest growing municipalities in the nation, but many places being denigrated as "slow growth" here are high growth or higher, comparatively, to many places elsewhere...
Fayetteville continues to exhibit positive growth, particularly on the northern and western extremes of the city...
At the metro level, Fayetteville won the lottery when Harnett County was moved from the Triangle's CSA to Fayetteville's MSA. Dunn/Harnett was one of the fastest growing Micropolitan areas up until that point, and it is now contributing to the Fayetteville MSA growth stats in a big way. Not only has Harnett outgrown Cumberland by percentage, it's also outgrown it in real numbers, despite being less than half its population. Fayetteville's other county in the MSA also outgrew Cumberland by percentage but not in absolute numbers.
Harnett since 2010: +21,285 or 18.6% growth (135,976)
Cumberland since 2010: +16,078 or 5.0% growth (335,509)
Hoke since 2010: +8,345 or 17.8% growth (55,234)
The city of Fayetteville itself has grown 5.5% since the last Census, which is actually slower than the national growth rate (6.3%) in the same time period. One can objectively call that slower growth, if not actually slow growth. The MSA has grown over 9% in that same time period, which is certainly moderate/strong growth. Again, thank Hargett County for their contribution. Without Harnett, the other two counties combined grew just over the national average (6.7%).
It's nice to see someone stick up for Fayetteville. It truly is forgotten/ignored, and has endured decades of indifference at best from much of the rest of the state. Nonetheless, the city itself is certainly not a growth engine.
At the metro level, Fayetteville won the lottery when Harnett County was moved from the Triangle's CSA to Fayetteville's MSA. Dunn/Harnett was one of the fastest growing Micropolitan areas up until that point, and it is now contributing to the Fayetteville MSA growth stats in a big way. Not only has Harnett outgrown Cumberland by percentage, it's also outgrown it in real numbers, despite being less than half its population. Fayetteville's other county in the MSA also outgrew Cumberland by percentage but not in absolute numbers.
Harnett since 2010: +21,285 or 18.6% growth (135,976)
Cumberland since 2010: +16,078 or 5.0% growth (335,509)
Hoke since 2010: +8,345 or 17.8% growth (55,234)
The city of Fayetteville itself has grown 5.5% since the last Census, which is actually slower than the national growth rate (6.3%) in the same time period. One can objectively call that slower growth, if not actually slow growth. The MSA has grown over 9% in that same time period, which is certainly moderate/strong growth. Again, thank Hargett County for their contribution. Without Harnett, the other two counties combined grew just over the national average (6.7%).
It's nice to see someone stick up for Fayetteville. It truly is forgotten/ignored, and has endured decades of indifference at best from much of the rest of the state. Nonetheless, the city itself is certainly not a growth engine.
Fayetteville's metro population, maybe CSA is what, about 400,000 or more?
That why I hated when people would say its loop/bypass that's slowly being built was an Eastern NC highway to nowhere.
To me that's a large population for NC's ugly stepchild of a city.
I wish they'd do a new logo, because that cursive Fayetteville on every official sign ain't dressing up anything.
I wish they'd do streetscape improvements for some of the ugliest thoroughfares like Bragg Blvd.
You quoted my post, are you just adding to my post? Otherwise, not really sure what it has to do with my post as far as agreeing/disagreeing.
I wish all cities had large city limit sizes. I also think some depressed regions with bad reputations could possibly be in a much different situation if some of the wealthier tax bases were in the city limit (and of course they had appropriate representation. Cities and suburban do best together.)
If you chopped CLT down to a smaller city limit, the tax revenue would fall rapidly and who knows. The city could be struggling without all that money. And let’s be real. I’m sure those in Ballantyne rather Charlotte be the way it is now, rather than a dangerous or struggling city.
The USA is a suburban nation outside of NYC. By far. Even the largest most urban cities are by far majority anywhere-suburb USA for most of the population. Cities should be larger to address the greater city area.
A Charlotte example. Could Charlotte have built the minor league baseball stadium and Romare park in its downtown without the wealthier burbs? Would Charlotte have attracted corporate relocations without those and similar investments that provide jobs for those suburbs? Could these smaller areas have the resources and urban planning to score HQ’s?
Would North Hills have grown as large and tall were it no in RAL city limits? Would a town want that? Would they have spent millions in upgrades and planning? That’s why I see benefits from the larger area of the city being a single government instead of individual towns and cities. Too much redundancy, competition, and not enough working together for the greater good.
You would hate metro Atlanta which continues to fracture into smaller townships because people think they can do better for their immediate area than waiting for the City of Atlanta to do it. They have just cause to be unsatisfied with Atlanta or the county's oversight and management, but the downside is so much efficiency lost for having 50 city halls, 50 fire departments, 50 police forces.
Buckhead's property taxes definitely keep the city afloat with so many bad areas.
But every election there are new townships on the ballot, and this past election, the city of Stockbridge tried to cut the town into two separate towns, of course one was mostly affluent and the other quite the opposite.
If that precedent is ever set in Georgia, watch out.
You ought to investigate if there are advantages to the being the largest cities in America like Houston and San Diego.
The suburban infrastructure is now being looked at as unsustainable when , like previously stated, gas, water and sewer lines must be replaced. The cost will be astronomical, and the ones who benefitted the most, speculative developers who got rich and left town, won't be paying for the problem they caused.
Yikes. RM can't catch a break. The ONLY top 25 municipality in the state to lose population; and it's nearby neighbor Wilson barely (probably within the margin of error) gained.
Aside from the crime their distance from the Triangle is also a negative factor.
They are too close to be their own destination and too far for reasonable commuting.
There's a dead zone around metros probably everywhere that distance hurts them.
Guess I'm that somebody, so here goes (and not good with percentages, so just listing where they stood in 2010 in parentheses):
11. Greenville: 93,400 (up from 84,554)
12. Asheville: 92,870 (up from 83,393)
13. Gastonia: 77,273 (up from 71,741)
14. Jacksonville: 72,436 (up from 70,145)
15. Chapel Hill: 64,051 (up from 57,233)
16. Apex: 59,300 (up from 37,476)
17. Huntersville: 58,098 (up from 46,773)
18. Burlington: 54,606 (up from 49,963)
19. Rocky Mount: 53,922 (down from 57,477)
20. Kannapolis: 50,841 (up from 42,625
21. Wilson: 49,459 (up from 49,167)
22. Wake Forest: 45,629 (up from 30,117)
23. Hickory: 41,171 (up from 40,010)
24. Indian Trail: 40,252 (up from 33,518)
25. Mooresville: 39,132 (up from 32,711)
Honorable mention at 26: Holly Springs: 35,540 (up from 24,661)
In the 80s when I was in high school, Wake Forest's population was 3,000-4,000 people....(for those of you who don't know the university used to be there in Wake County before moving to Winston in the 60's or 70s I think.)
Holly Springs was a crossroads with probably 50 people.
Cary, probably had 50,000 people and Raleigh had 148.000 people in the early 80s.
Henderson was a nice, bustling town with decent shopping (especially Downtown).. what other city under 20,000 people has an indoor mall? That was before it became a drug distribution gateway and crime infested.
With all the building up they are doing and road construction, you cant even tell Rocky Mount is losing population the way it is.... Cant wait to see what the 2020 census actually look like.. anybody know the population of each county?
I really want to know Nash and Edgecombe populations as of 2019 and 2020. if you look at the table on wikipedia of the covid 19 cases in each county of NC, Nash and Edgecombe populations are a lot more than what i actually thought they were, that probably explains the growth in both Tarboro and Rocky Mount industry and business wise, yet the populations are decreasing. idk, **** just weird.
Wonder can Rocky Mount annex Red Oak and Dortches and Tarboro annex Princeville. the thing about that is, I doubt Dortches or Red Oak residents would want to get annexed into the city, just due to all the things going on in the government and city council. and with Princeville, idk if tarboro would want to take on that responsibility, with the flooding and stuff. but i always felt like princeville and tarboro should just merge together, its basically the same **** anyway, share the same zip code, everybody go to the same schools, shop the same places, know the same people. Princeville people are so prideful of the town and history tho, i doubt they would want that. (I am from Princeville btw, done lived in Princeville, Tarboro and Rocky Mount, love my hometown and area.)
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