I'm a bit surprised NOVA localities haven't changed Confederate names (Richmond: moving, office)

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by JEB77

The larger question, when it comes to the continued existence of references to Confederate figures in this area in 2011, is whether they serve to prompt discussion and dialogue about historical events, which people might view as a good thing, or simply are perceived as honoring a largely discredited cause. As I've said before, I'd prefer that people who are affected most directly by things such as high schools named after Confederate generals decide how they feel about that, rather than have people who would simply prefer NoVa to be indistinguishable from Paramus, New Jersey or Towson, Maryland make the decision.

And as I have said repeatedly, I have no problem with high schools named after confederate generals, particularly ones who were actually born in Virginia, and a fortiori ones like Lee who were born in Northern Virginia and whose lives were interwoven with this region.

Generals who were born in virginia - which name does not fit this category?

1. Robert E Lee. 2. Stonewall Jackson 3. JEB Stuart 4. Jeff Davis

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by JEB77

It's hard to look at the history of the South after the Civil War and think otherwise, since many things that subsequently took place were clearly designed to preserve the status of whites compared to that of freed slaves. However, ascribing uniformly held views to large classes of people - whether on the basis of geography, gender or religion - is inappropriate and likely to prompt resentment.

So I went back and looked at the WaPo article

it says: "However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery." (bolding/italicizing by BBD)

Most. Not all. One poster here MISQUOTED the WaPo. Y'all are reacting to a straw man - to an absolute generalization that the WaPo writer did not make.

[JD984]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

So I went back and looked at the WaPo article

it says: "However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery." (bolding/italicizing by BBD)

Most. Not all. One poster here MISQUOTED the WaPo. Y'all are reacting to a straw man - to an absolute generalization that the WaPo writer did not make.

Mea culpa for the over-interpretation (I quoted the WaPo piece verbatim), but I don't think it changes at all the point that the author of the Post piece - who certainly was not in a position to survey most Southeners at the time of the Civil War - engaged in very broad generalizations that are not atypical of opinion pieces in the Post when it comes to groups disfavored by the elites at the Post (and obviously lead some posters not to be very interested in their contents). The opinions expressed in the piece simply are not analogous - as another poster, not you, asserted - to yesterday's closing prices on the NYSE.

As I mentioned, if the current students of Lee, Stuart or Jackson HS and their families wanted to change the names of those schools, I would support their initiatives, though I'd also hope that similar opportunities were provided to students and families at other institutions in the Mid-Atlantic named after those whom history has not uniformly judged kindly, such as Peter Stuyvesant. Same with respect to the views of local residents about the stretch of Jefferson Davis HW in Alexandria.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by JEB77

Mea culpa, but I don't think it changes the point that the author of the Post piece - who certainly was not in a position to survey most Southeners at the time of the Civil War - engaged in very broad generalizations that are not atypical of opinion pieces in the Post when it comes to groups disfavored by the elites at the Post (and obviously lead some posters not to be very interested in their contents).

As I mentioned, if the current students of Lee, Stuart or Jackson HS and their families wanted to change the names of those schools, I would support their initiatives, though I'd also hope that similar opportunities were provided to students and families at other institutions in the Mid-Atlantic named after those whom history has not uniformly judged kindly, such as Peter Stuyvesant.

The post author did not do a survey, but I think he was repeating whats pretty much a consensus among historians. I hardly think that the editors of the Post are very concerned about the status of southerners IN 1859. Somebody did a piece on the Civil war, since its the anniversary and all that. And I find your use of 'elites' confusing - you mean the editors? I mean are they more "elite" than say the editors at the WSJ or the Washington Times?

As for Stuy high - the main thing said against ole governor peg leg is that he was an antisemite - which he was, of course. The peak Jewish enrollment at Stuy was a couple of decades ago. I dont think the asian americans who are now the majority there find the issue of the governor's struggle with the Dutch West India company over the admission of the "fourty families" to be a pressing issue at all. SInce most Jewish Stuy grads (at least all the ones I know) laugh about it(the historical irony - which was more intense when the school was over 40% Jewish), I can't really blame them(the asian americans, that is). Anyway, one thing Peter Stuyvesant was NOT, was a traitor to the USA, so it really presents different issues.

[brooklynborndad]

and as I have said elsewhere, I think irony is the best result for something like this. A heavily Jewish Stuy High was the best rebuke to Gov Stuyvesant's ghost - I dont think a mostly black (and implicitly segregated) area along rte 1 would be nearly as subversive of what Jeff Davis stood for, as thoroughly hipsterized area, but thats a long way off, sadly.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by JEB77

rather than have people who would simply prefer NoVa to be indistinguishable from Paramus, New Jersey or Towson, Maryland make the decision.

I would vastly prefer a region with a distinctive look and feel instead of the chain stores, malls, and sprawl that makes NoVa look and feel like so many other places around the USA, north and south. But I fear thats a losing battle, and I dont often post about it, as complaining about stuff like that seems to really annoy a lot of people on this board.

Leaving aside issues of planning and architecture, I would love to see a NoVa that embodied, as far as possible the virtues of "love and honor and pity and pride and compassion and sacrifice." That would be a more wonderful expression of southernness than the name on Lee High School or whatever. There are individuals who have those, but it hardly colors this region more than any other, and southerners no more than yankees or immigrants.

[Caladium]

If it's a matter of wanting to honor different people, we have lots of new roads, schools, etc. being built. IMO it would be a lot easier and a lot less expensive to start a petition to name something new than trying to change a name.

[brooklynborndad]

hat tip smithsonian Mag

Battle of Fort Sumter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fort Sumter was designed to mount 135 guns, operated by 650 officers and men, but construction had encountered numerous delays for decades and budget cuts had left it only about 90 percent finished in early 1861. Anderson's garrison consisted of just 85 men, primarily made up of two small artillery companies: Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery, commanded by Capt. Abner Doubleday, and Company H, commanded by Capt. Truman Seymour. There were six other officers present: Surgeon Samuel W. Crawford, First Lt. Theodore Talbot of Company H, First Lt. Jefferson C. Davis of the 1st U.S. Artillery, and Second Lt. Norman J. Hall of Company H. Capt. John G. Foster and First Lt. George W. Snyder of the Corps of Engineers were responsible for construction of the Charleston forts, but they reported to their headquarters in Washington, not directly to Anderson. The remaining personnel were 68 noncommissioned officers and privates, eight musicians, and 43 noncombatant workmen.[14]



From now on, its First Lt Jefferson C Davis Memorial Highway. Saves businesses the trouble of changing their stationary. All we have to do is publicize it.

[VATechMURP]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

I would vastly prefer a region with a distinctive look and feel instead of the chain stores, malls, and sprawl that makes NoVa look and feel like so many other places around the USA, north and south. But I fear thats a losing battle, and I dont often post about it, as complaining about stuff like that seems to really annoy a lot of people on this board.

I very much agree with this. NOVA should try to hold on to its history and sense of place as it's going to be a losing battle anyway.

To be a bit morbid, over the next 30 years there is going to be a mass die-off of the Baby Boom generation to be replaced by a majority non-white, and immigrant and immigrant offspring population. Issues such as language and religious tolerance are going to be of far greater relevance than a conflict that many have no connection to.

[IndiaLimaDelta]

Originally Posted by VATechMURP

I very much agree with this. NOVA should try to hold on to its history and sense of place as it's going to be a losing battle anyway.

To be a bit morbid, over the next 30 years there is going to be a mass die-off of the Baby Boom generation to be replaced by a majority non-white, and immigrant and immigrant offspring population. Issues such as language and religious tolerance are going to be of far greater relevance than a conflict that many have no connection to.

Well, we'll see. Demographic trends are notoriously difficult to predict long-term.

Historically, immigrants have had a funny habit of behaving like... Americans after a generation or two.