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Yeah, the next thing you know someone from the inner suburbs or DC will makes some outrageous claim like Purcellville and Round Hill are closer to West Virginia than to DC. Actually, I give people in DC (or, more accurately, on the DC forum) a lot of grief for misspelling "Loudoun" as "Loudon," which sometimes strikes me as akin to those - and I will note in advance that I do not include you in this category - who insist on using "Democrat" as an adjective, rather than "Democratic," and then pretend they don't know the correct spelling or word.
Er, isn't Purcellville closer to West Virginia than to DC? Or are you being sarcastic?
As for the term "Democrat" as an adjective in lieu of "Democratic," I tend to use both interchangeably. But I fail to see how this ties to the discussion at hand.
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I'm not often in Ashburn between noon and 2 PM on weekdays, so can't comment on how traffic is then, compared to at 4 or 5 PM on a Saturday. Seems to fall squarely in "YMMV" territory. What is clear is that, if Loudoun attracts more employers, traffic will start to look more like traffic in parts of Western Fairfax, unless they all end up in self-contained areas like One Loudoun (and, even then, many people will drive to get there).
Saturday evenings seems to be peak traffic time in NoVA. Ever drive to DC at that time? Frequently there is a huge clog around 267-495 intersection and/or 267-66.
Sure, the traffic will get worse in Loudoun -- that's almost a certainty. It might even get worse at a higher rate than in Fairfax. That is, unfortunately, the price of growth. There is just no magic solution to that.
I do know some places in the Midwest where traffic has all but disappeared -- but I don't think many people would like to relocate to crumbling rustbelt towns just for the ease of traffic.
Er, isn't Purcellville closer to West Virginia than to DC? Or are you being sarcastic?
As for the term "Democrat" as an adjective in lieu of "Democratic," I tend to use both interchangeably. But I fail to see how this ties to the discussion at hand.
Yes and yes.
You suggested that some DC and inner-suburb residents lump Loudoun in the same bucket as Fauquier County or West Virginia. I agree, but was simply pointing out that, in fact, a substantial part of Loudoun is closer to West Virginia than it is to DC. Some DC and inner-suburb residents may not know, or profess ignorance of, what Loudoun brings to the region's table in terms of jobs, high-income residents and lifestyle, but still pass Geography 101.
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta
Saturday evenings seems to be peak traffic time in NoVA. Ever drive to DC at that time? Frequently there is a huge clog around 267-495 intersection and/or 267-66.
Sure, the traffic will get worse in Loudoun -- that's almost a certainty. It might even get worse at a higher rate than in Fairfax. That is, unfortunately, the price of growth. There is just no magic solution to that.
I do know some places in the Midwest where traffic has all but disappeared -- but I don't think many people would like to relocate to crumbling rustbelt towns just for the ease of traffic.
Agreed, but to go back to the original topic this may suggest that Loudoun might study MoCo and Fairfax more intensely than vice versa, since otherwise Loudoun may end up pursuing a Fairfax-like base of employers and end up with Fairfax-style traffic as well. If that happens, its "lifestyle" advantage over Fairfax for many current residents may diminish. Of course, there's always something to be said for enjoying it while it lasts.
If Loudoun gets a Fairfax-like base of employers, what'll happen?
Will more development in Jefferson WV and Frederick VA begin belching out commuters to Loudoun, who'll then take the Loudoun jobs?
Will Loudouners be able to commute within Loudoun, thus saving Loudoun some traffic and sparing Route 7, 28, 267, 66, etc., the traffic that'd otherwise be heading into Reston/Tysons/Arlington?
One of the things that's impressed me is that between 2000 and 2010, a higher percentage of Loudouners work in the county than in 2000, *despite* the huge gainst
I don't mind the DC/Arlington snobbiness about Loudoun's distance from DC, but I do get annoyed by their seeming belief that there's absolutely no jobs at all outside of Tysons and that we all commute 90 minutes.
You suggested that some DC and inner-suburb residents lump Loudoun in the same bucket as Fauquier County or West Virginia. I agree, but was simply pointing out that, in fact, a substantial part of Loudoun is closer to West Virginia than it is to DC. Some DC and inner-suburb residents may not know, or profess ignorance of, what Loudoun brings to the region's table in terms of jobs, high-income residents and lifestyle, but still pass Geography 101.
Yes, the sparsely populated western Loudoun is closer to WV than DC or, for that matter, Ashburn is closer to WV than DC as the crow flies too, but what is the point there? Is eastern Loudoun, the main job/population center, in any way similar to the small slice of WV that happens to sit next to the western edge of Loudoun? Simple distance has little bearing on what we discuss here. "Closer" can be geographic, but it can also be in context of demographics, political geography, etc.
My earlier point was simply that quite a few (even, or perhaps especially, educated and moneyed) DC and inner suburban residents seem to think that Loudoun County was out "in the boonies" with nary an understanding of how much the Dulles Tech Corridor has been powering the area's economy and creating critical economic and population mass for new density clusters. Their confusion and misperception is politico-economic geography, not simply geography 101. Perhaps there is a surprising (to me) degree of insularity inside the Beltway, but that's another discussion.
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Agreed, but to go back to the original topic this may suggest that Loudoun might study MoCo and Fairfax more intensely than vice versa, since otherwise Loudoun may end up pursuing a Fairfax-like base of employers and end up with Fairfax-style traffic as well. If that happens, its "lifestyle" advantage over Fairfax for many current residents may diminish. Of course, there's always something to be said for enjoying it while it lasts.
You assume traffic congestion is the major "lifestyle" advantage of Loudoun over Fairfax. I don't think that's the case. Certainly I think Loudoun should study Fairfax both for positive and negative lessons, but the genesis of some of this increasingly sharp-edged discussion is Brooklynborndad's claim that Fairfax has essentially nothing to learn from Loudoun.
Yes, the sparsely populated western Loudoun is closer to WV than DC or, for that matter, Ashburn is closer to WV than DC as the crow flies too, but what is the point there? Is eastern Loudoun, the main job/population center, in any way similar to the small slice of WV that happens to sit next to the western edge of Loudoun? Simple distance has little bearing on what we discuss here. "Closer" can be geographic, but it can also be in context of demographics, political geography, etc.
My earlier point was simply that quite a few (even, or perhaps especially, educated and moneyed) DC and inner suburban residents seem to think that Loudoun County was out "in the boonies" with nary an understanding of how much the Dulles Tech Corridor has been powering the area's economy and creating critical economic and population mass for new density clusters. Their confusion and misperception is politico-economic geography, not simply geography 101. Perhaps there is a surprising (to me) degree of insularity inside the Beltway, but that's another discussion.
I personally wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether people who live in, say, eastern Loudoun, feel closer culturally to those who live in DC and the inner suburbs, the real "exurbs," other high-tech clusters like Austin and Silicon Valley, or none of the above. Economically, they clearly make a major and growing contribution to the region, but the tangible benefits that this activity provides to someone who lives in DC may not be self-evident. In any event, if you lived in New York City previously, the insularity or parochialism that you ascribe to certain inside-the-Beltway residents should not surprise you.
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Originally Posted by IndiaLimaDelta
You assume traffic congestion is the major "lifestyle" advantage of Loudoun over Fairfax. I don't think that's the case. Certainly I think Loudoun should study Fairfax both for positive and negative lessons, but the genesis of some of this increasingly sharp-edged discussion is Brooklynborndad's claim that Fairfax has essentially nothing to learn from Loudoun.
I don't really make that assumption, nor do I think that, in a general sense, Loudoun has a "lifestyle" advantage over Fairfax or MoCo. What I think is patently obvious, since people vote with their feet, is that many Loudoun residents have concluded that Loudoun is the right place for them at this stage of their lives. If they perceive less traffic in parts of Loudoun than in nearby parts of Fairfax, that's part of the equation. The desire to live in safe, pleasant communities, with good (and often relatively new) schools, among other typically well-educated people, may play a larger role. At the risk of coming across as condescending, I'd suggest that, so long as the cookie is from Mrs. Fields, "cookie-cutter" can be very enjoyable.
[quote=IndiaLimaDelta;26436080]And contrary to your assertion earlier, "favored quarters" are rarely if ever simply areas with available empty space
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I never said they were. The favored quarter is that direction where high end residences tend to move. In NoVa North Arlington, northern Fairfax, and LoCo are ALL in the favored quarter. only one of those has lots of vacant land. Loudoun, PWC, and Stafford have lots of vacant land - only one of those is in the favored quarter.
Loudoun BOTH is in the favored quarter AND has lots of vacant land. Its in the intersection of the two sets (and the only other county that is, in greater Washington, is Frederick Cty Md, which lacks the airport and has a larger legacy city).
you would be incorrect Fairfax BOS is absolutely not interested in a large gun range/training facility near a densely populated residential area (or, I suspect, anywhere else in the county). They don't like guns. It's an ideology thing.
Id be surprised if there aren't gun owners on the FFX BOS. Do you have evidence that they would ban a gun range anywhere in the county?
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It has little to do with simply having empty space as you claimed earlier was the "only lesson" Fairfax could draw from Loudoun.
Well FFX could learn that its good to be in the favored quarter, and about a thiird of FFX already is, but moving Richmond highway, Annandale, and Burket there will difficult.
And similarly while part of FFX has access to the airport, its hard to provide that to the entire county, as a matter of geography.
You will note that in terms of airport access and favored quarter location, the northern third of FFX county is similar to Loudoun (though not, of course, in terms of vacant land). And you will note that northern FFX has higher incomes, higher property values, a better employment/population ratio, than Southern FFX. Despite being governed by the same BOS. It (the northern third of FFX) has, IIUC, higher incomes, higher property values, and a better employment pop ratio, than LoCo, despite being governed by those nasty "leftists" on the FFX BOS.
I personally wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether people who live in, say, eastern Loudoun, feel closer culturally to those who live in DC and the inner suburbs, the real "exurbs," other high-tech clusters like Austin and Silicon Valley, or none of the above. Economically, they clearly make a major and growing contribution to the region, but the tangible benefits that this activity provides to someone who lives in DC may not be self-evident. In any event, if you lived in New York City previously, the insularity or parochialism that you ascribe to certain inside-the-Beltway residents should not surprise you.
It's not just economics either. I've encountered numerous remarks while in Georgetown, Arlington and McLean about allegedly lower education level and lack of culture in the NoVA exurbs, which are clearly untrue. One person even had the temerity to tell me that Loudoun was a "cow town."
Yes, it's true, New Yorkers can be extremely insular. But I really did not expect that here considering the demographic patterns change gradually and continuously in NoVA rather unlike the metro NYC region.
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I don't really make that assumption, nor do I think that, in a general sense, Loudoun has a "lifestyle" advantage over Fairfax or MoCo. What I think is patently obvious, since people vote with their feet, is that many Loudoun residents have concluded that Loudoun is the right place for them at this stage of their lives. If they perceive less traffic in parts of Loudoun than in nearby parts of Fairfax, that's part of the equation. The desire to live in safe, pleasant communities, with good (and often relatively new) schools, among other typically well-educated people, may play a larger role.
Isn't that the very definition of a "lifestyle advantage" for that demographic?
Id be surprised if there aren't gun owners on the FFX BOS. Do you have evidence that they would ban a gun range anywhere in the county?
First of all, being a gun owner doesn't make one automatically supportive of business or, for that matter, gun rights. There are plenty of "freedom for me, but not for thee" lefty types who own guns themselves, but feel that the rest of the grubby masses shouldn't be allowed to own one... or have access to large gun ranges, shops and training facilities.
I am getting a bit tired of having to deal with repeated strawman arguments. I write one thing and you constantly rephrase it to something else I did not write, which is easier to argue against or dismiss.
I did not write "FFX BOS would ban a gun range anywhere in the county." My opinion is that a majority on the FFX BOS would be against building a large facility like Silver Eagle, especially near residential areas similar to where it actually was built in Ashburn (which makes it more accessible to customers). I would speculate, based on past experience, that if pressed they would offer a "safety or noise issue" argument (which would be specious since projectiles and noise are safely contained inside an indoor facility) when in all likelihood it would be due to being anti-gun and anti-gun business.
You think people who are against BB guns (!) would be gun- or gun business-friendly?
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Well FFX could learn that its good to be in the favored quarter, and about a thiird of FFX already is, but moving Richmond highway, Annandale, and Burket there will difficult.
Again, are you suggesting the FFX has nothing to learn from Loudoun except 1) have more space ("oh well, we don't") and be in the favored quarter ("oh well part of our county is and can't move the rest of the county, can we?")?
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And you will note that northern FFX has higher incomes, higher property values, a better employment/population ratio, than Southern FFX. Despite being governed by the same BOS. It (the northern third of FFX) has, IIUC, higher incomes, higher property values, and a better employment pop ratio, than LoCo, despite being governed by those nasty "leftists" on the FFX BOS.
I never called FFX BOS "nasty leftists." Would you please stop putting words into my mouth (or keyboard)?
There are lots of areas that are governed by those of leftist persuasion that are very affluent. (And "leftist" here is not an intentionally derisive, but a comparative term to "rightist" or "conservative" -- I don't like to use "liberal" since I come from a culture where liberal usually, and in my view correctly, refers to what is sometimes called "libertarian" or "classically liberal" in this country; for the same reason I sometimes use "socialist" in lieu of "liberal" -- the left in many other countries and cultures aren't terrified of being called socialist as the left is here). But such affluent socialist areas beg all sorts of interesting questions that are beyond the scope of this thread (such as would the area be even better off with different policies, etc.).
For now, I would simply say that picking out the most affluent third of FFX and then comparing it to Loudoun as a whole is not good statistical practice.
[quote=IndiaLimaDelta;26480321]First of all, being a gun owner doesn't make one automatically supportive of business or, for that matter, gun rights. There are plenty of "freedom for me, but not for thee" lefty types who own guns themselves, but feel that the rest of the grubby masses shouldn't be allowed to own one... or have access to large gun ranges, shops and training facilities. [quote]
again, the FFX BOS isnt lefty in any reasonable sense, and you have presented no evidence they dont support gun rights.
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"I did not write "FFX BOS would ban a gun range anywhere in the county." My opinion is that a majority on the FFX BOS would be against building a large facility like Silver Eagle, especially near residential areas similar to where it actually was built in Ashburn (which makes it more accessible to customers). I would speculate, based on past experience, that if pressed they would offer a "safety or noise issue" argument (which would be specious since projectiles and noise are safely contained inside an indoor facility) when in all likelihood it would be due to being anti-gun and anti-gun business.
In all likelihood? Its quite possible there could be reasonable concerns about noise and safety - and no, I do not intend to go into your argument if there is. And even IF they were anti-gun I doubt that would have meaningful impact on the economic success of the county.
"Again, are you suggesting the FFX has nothing to learn from Loudoun except 1) have more space ("oh well, we don't") and be in the favored quarter ("oh well part of our county is and can't move the rest of the county, can we?")?"
I think that accounts for the differnce in the stats. That does not exclude the possibility that LoCo is doing something good FFX county should learn from (I personally thing FFX should copy LoCo's later middle school start times) but I see no evidence of any such things related to the economic or demographic data.
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Then you can live in either of the two areas you mentioned with a peace of mind and conscience, yes?I never called FFX BOS "nasty leftists." Would you please stop putting words into my mouth (or keyboard)?
My we are getting touchy, aren't we? you havent said exactly WHAT FFX should learn that would impact the numbers - so I infer its FFXs political complexion.
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Then you can live in either of the two areas you mentioned with a peace of mind and conscience, yes?There are lots of areas that are governed by those of leftist persuasion that are very affluent. (And "leftist" here is not an intentionally derisive, but a comparative term to "rightist" or "conservative" -- I don't like to use "liberal" since I come from a culture where liberal usually, and in my view correctly, refers to what is sometimes called "libertarian" or "classically liberal"
you could use market liberal vs social liberal, I suppose. That would avoid the silliness of calling people who believe in a predominantly private market economy, who are mostly apathetic about trade unions, etc "leftists"
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in this country; for the same reason I sometimes use "socialist" in lieu of "liberal" -- the left in many other countries and cultures aren't terrified of being called socialist as the left is here).
yes, in many euro countries the name Social democrat (which is still distinctive from socialist) is used by parties that have long since abandoned their roots. There were socialist and social democrat movements in this country - and "progressive leftist" movements that had different class bases. Their overlap with the contemporary Democratic Party is limited. Indeed contemporary Democratic party positions on economics and class are more congruent with conservative positions in europe than even with the watered down third wayism that passes for social democracy in most places. This applies doubly to someplace where the dems are as moderate as Fairfax County.
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For now, I would simply say that picking out the most affluent third of FFX and then comparing it to Loudoun as a whole is not good statistical practice.
I dont think comparing Loudoun to FFX or FFX to MoCO to get lessons about the drivers of growth is good statistical practice.
You are correct though that comparing northern FFX to Loudoun is not a good comparison either - northern FFX has higher incomes and higher property values than LoCo because its closer in, but it has slower growth because its built out. But its certainly a better comparison to LoCo as a whole than FFX as a whole is.
Isn't that the very definition of a "lifestyle advantage" for that demographic?
It certainly could be, particularly if they also happen to work in or close to Loudoun.
P.S. - I'm actually not sure exactly what a "cow town" is, but it sounds kind of fun. Makes me think of a place like Fort Worth where you could get really good barbecue and brisket.
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