Macy's at Landmark closing; death knell for Landmark Mall? (Richmond: fit in, 2014)

[ChristineVA]

Originally Posted by gomason

I really dont understand all these malls coverting to outdoor shopping centers. This is freaking DC where we have 10 degree days and get two foot blizzards. Can someone send the memo to the developers. This isn't California.

I think its just over saturation in the age of Amazon. Tysons, Pentagon City, and Fair Oaks will be fine but these low end ones are going to struggle. Even after the rennovation, Springfield Town Center's sales have been mediocre.

I don't understand it either, but it seems to be what people want. I find it tiresome to be out shopping in a "town center" when it's 24 degrees out.

[LynchburgLover]

Originally Posted by gomason

I really dont understand all these malls coverting to outdoor shopping centers. This is freaking DC where we have 10 degree days and get two foot blizzards. Can someone send the memo to the developers. This isn't California.

I think its just over saturation in the age of Amazon. Tysons, Pentagon City, and Fair Oaks will be fine but these low end ones are going to struggle. Even after the rennovation, Springfield Town Center's sales have been mediocre.

I probably have a different take on this but I know it applies to me personally. Indoor, enclosed malls are claustophobic. Find an exterior exit if you are in a panic -- terrorist attack, gun man, bomb, even a simple fire etc.

Outdoor shopping areas give you the feeling of a better chance to get away. It is a real consideration in this world.

[NC211]

Originally Posted by LynchburgLover

I probably have a different take on this but I know it applies to me personally. Indoor, enclosed malls are claustophobic. Find an exterior exit if you are in a panic -- terrorist attack, gun man, bomb, even a simple fire etc.

Outdoor shopping areas give you the feeling of a better chance to get away. It is a real consideration in this world.

Your viewpoint isn't that far from the truth, and widely shared by several others (me included). Howard Hughes Co., has been working on plans for Landmark for years. They've just been waiting for the shoe to drop (macy's), and I can promise you they're ready for the other shoe to drop too (sears). I've seen developer package after developer package of new projects all around that mall, all saying eventually it'll be redeveloped into a more "live/work/play" setting.


Outdoor shopping is cheaper to develop, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper to update later than these fully enclosed retail centers. They're like 21st century strip malls now. Make a "main street" feel, through some apartments on top, and you've created a "vibe" instead of just a "destination". And...it works!


I know the mosaic district very well. I've financed a couple of these new projects there. 10 years ago I drove through there while considering a deal (that ultimately I ended up financing a few years later) and thinking (who in the world would live here? where's the market for this stuff, when you're this close to Tysons Corner?). I probably turned down 80% of what I saw there. But the 20% that I approved, have done incredibly well! One of which is residential in nature and now costs more to buy less than 2,000sf than what I actually paid for over 3x's the space in Loudoun slightly over one year ago.


If you build it....they will come. Apparently so!

[Carlingtonian]

The decline of indoor malls has been documented for a long time. A newer phenomenon is the disappearance of upscale retail altogether--or even middle-tier retail. It looks like Sears will be going out of business, and Macys isn't doing great. And of course, we've already lost Filenes, Woody's, Border's, and probably others I've forgotten.

The only upscale stores that seem to be doing OK are Nordstrom, Neiman's, and Saks, which appeal to the uppermost tier. Then again, they may be surviving mostly due to their discount versions (Rack, Last Call, and Off Fifth, respectively). Meanwhile at the other end of the spectrum, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and Wal-Mart seem to be thriving.

I think in 30 years, we'll see very few retail clothing stores and no malls of any kind--in Northern Virginia or anywhere else. I guess that's not altogether bad, in that most of us have too much stuff cluttering our lives. I do feel bad for those who lost their jobs in sales or management.

[LynchburgLover]

I should also add that I prefer shopping areas where I can park my car fairly close to the shops rather than in a parking garage. I used to love Reston Town Center until they overdeveloped it and turned all the open parking into garages.

[LynchburgLover]

Originally Posted by NC211

Your viewpoint isn't that far from the truth, and widely shared by several others (me included). Howard Hughes Co., has been working on plans for Landmark for years. They've just been waiting for the shoe to drop (macy's), and I can promise you they're ready for the other shoe to drop too (sears). I've seen developer package after developer package of new projects all around that mall, all saying eventually it'll be redeveloped into a more "live/work/play" setting.


Outdoor shopping is cheaper to develop, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper to update later than these fully enclosed retail centers. They're like 21st century strip malls now. Make a "main street" feel, through some apartments on top, and you've created a "vibe" instead of just a "destination". And...it works!


I know the mosaic district very well. I've financed a couple of these new projects there. 10 years ago I drove through there while considering a deal (that ultimately I ended up financing a few years later) and thinking (who in the world would live here? where's the market for this stuff, when you're this close to Tysons Corner?). I probably turned down 80% of what I saw there. But the 20% that I approved, have done incredibly well! One of which is residential in nature and now costs more to buy less than 2,000sf than what I actually paid for over 3x's the space in Loudoun slightly over one year ago.


If you build it....they will come. Apparently so!

I don't remember where you moved in North Carolina but my all time favorite shopping center is Friendly Center in Greensboro. Ironically, initially designed and built in the late 1950/early 60s but they never redeveloped it as an enclosed mall. Now it epitomizes the open-concept without parking garages.

[NC211]

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

The decline of indoor malls has been documented for a long time. A newer phenomenon is the disappearance of upscale retail altogether--or even middle-tier retail. It looks like Sears will be going out of business, and Macys isn't doing great. And of course, we've already lost Filenes, Woody's, Border's, and probably others I've forgotten.

The only upscale stores that seem to be doing OK are Nordstrom, Neiman's, and Saks, which appeal to the uppermost tier. Then again, they may be surviving mostly due to their discount versions (Rack, Last Call, and Off Fifth, respectively). Meanwhile at the other end of the spectrum, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and Wal-Mart seem to be thriving.

I think in 30 years, we'll see very few retail clothing stores and no malls of any kind--in Northern Virginia or anywhere else. I guess that's not altogether bad, in that most of us have too much stuff cluttering our lives. I do feel bad for those who lost their jobs in sales or management.

I agree, but I don't think clothing will ever go the way of the internet completely. On the upside though, with the decline of the super-store, maybe the rise (return) of the small business owner now? These outdoor shopping areas are perfect for them to operate a more targeted retail outfit from. What I'm noticing is that these redevelopments are delivering retail to support the residential being built along with it. Small grocery stores, fast/grab food, dry cleaners, ice cream shops, etc. They're like tiny little neighborhoods with their own retail support on the ground floor. Crown Farm in Gaithersburg comes to mind. One Loudoun comes to mind. Even Mosaic. Personally, I like this trend! It reminds me of areas of Chicago, Birmingham and NY. Chicago has these neighborhood pockets where the residential is built around it's own "downtown", like Glen Ellyn, Wheaton, Naperville, and so on. Birmingham has this too, with Mountain Brook (three village areas for nice retail), Homewood, Vestavia, etc. What doesn't have it, which is a lot like Loudoun County, is Johnson County, KS on the western side of KC. That, like Loudoun, is still big-boxes on busy street corners surrounded by the same 10 home designs repeated thousands and thousands of times over the past 25 years.


I do shop at Best Buy over Amazon for electronics, but that's because Best Buy will price-match to Amazon (when being sold by Amazon directly). I like the ability to buy it and have it immediately.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by NC211

I agree, but I don't think clothing will ever go the way of the internet completely.

I agree with you there. Some things are very hard to fit online (e.g., suits, dress shoes), and there are other frustrations with online shopping. E.g., I refuse to buy something marked only as "imported," because I avoid products made in China for political reasons (mostly the Yulin festival but also industrial espionage, wanton environmental depredation, etc.).

Originally Posted by NC211

On the upside though, with the decline of the super-store, maybe the rise (return) of the small business owner now? These outdoor shopping areas are perfect for them to operate a more targeted retail outfit from. What I'm noticing is that these redevelopments are delivering retail to support the residential being built along with it. Small grocery stores, fast/grab food, dry cleaners, ice cream shops, etc. They're like tiny little neighborhoods with their own retail support on the ground floor. Crown Farm in Gaithersburg comes to mind. One Loudoun comes to mind. Even Mosaic. Personally, I like this trend! It reminds me of areas of Chicago, Birmingham and NY. Chicago has these neighborhood pockets where the residential is built around it's own "downtown", like Glen Ellyn, Wheaton, Naperville, and so on. Birmingham has this too, with Mountain Brook (three village areas for nice retail), Homewood, Vestavia, etc. What doesn't have it, which is a lot like Loudoun County, is Johnson County, KS on the western side of KC. That, like Loudoun, is still big-boxes on busy street corners surrounded by the same 10 home designs repeated thousands and thousands of times over the past 25 years.

I guess it depends on what's being sold. The only things we've bought at Mosaic other than food are chocolates and jewelry--never clothing.

So I think we'll always have boutique retail (where the experience or product uniqueness is part of the appeal), along with both upscale and downscale clothing retail. But not at malls. I foresee more free-standing Nordstrom Racks and the like.

Originally Posted by NC211

I do shop at Best Buy over Amazon for electronics, but that's because Best Buy will price-match to Amazon (when being sold by Amazon directly). I like the ability to buy it and have it immediately.

I recently did something similar with Target. I'm paying tax either way, and if Target has it in stock, I'd rather get it now than wait for shipment. Plus Amazon has opened itself up to all kinds of shady sellers in the past few years.

[leighland]

Originally Posted by SmoothGuy

Yes, Macy's is selling it's property at Tyson's Galleria. I was hoping that a dept store, new to the area (Barney's New York or Bergdorf) would take it's place, but it looks like the owner of the mall will use that space for redevelopment.

[url]http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2016/11/21/changes-coming-to-tysons-galleria-after-macy-s.html[/url]

Galleria is really dated and needs an update.I don't like the stores there. Neiman Marcus is ok but skews old, like Lord and Taylor. I take a winter indoor walk there once a year-never buy anything except a chocolate croissant--glad that Paul is there.

Chicago has the massive Old Orchard outdoor mall in Skokie (half the size of Tysons) - its outdoor which is insane but I was there a lot when I lived breifly on the Northside.

[kevinm]

Originally Posted by ChristineVA

I don't understand it either, but it seems to be what people want. I find it tiresome to be out shopping in a "town center" when it's 24 degrees out.

it encourages actual "shopping" and not just "loitering" by packs of teens.