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The median household income is ~ $100k in Fairfax County.
The median house was ~ $356k in April 2009.
With interest rates today the median household can easily afford the median house assuming they actually have some CASH saved for a down payment.
Thems the facts.
If you want more house you need to make more money or sacrafice more.
And yes, I have a single income, but also a wife and 2 kids to support and I have a SFH in Fairfax County that I purchased in 2003 with 5% down and no I do not make $140k per year.
You can buy a single family in my neighborhood now for under $300k. Some of our best neighbors are teachers and firefighters and blah blah blah.
If you want it you can do it. If you don't then don't.
In the words of that great philosopher Ursula - Life's full of tough choices, isn't it.
Who I'd also be interested to hear from also are stay-at-home parents with a few children who have their spouses being the only bread-winner for their families. When did you buy your home? How much of your current net budget is being devoted to housing costs? How old were you when you were able to comfortably afford a home on one income? How much does your spouse earn, and, more importantly, did he/she finance the home on his/her own or did you both pool your financial resources?
We are one of these families. My husband brings in our only income and he earns only a little over $100K. We're both in our very early 30s.
For now, we still rent. We did own a home when we lived in Nebraska. My husband's salary there was in the upper 90s, and the house cost 200K.
Our savings weren't impressive. Until 2006, my husband was a Ph.D. student and I was a secretary - we just barely paid the bills, never mind having much to save, despite living pretty frugally. But we have good credit, and in Nebraska we were able to buy that house with 10% down. (The tightening in the credit markets has hurt new buyers - there are fewer options at the moment for people who don't have the downpayment, or access to parents who can help. Both of my parents are quite literally bankrupt - as in, my dad's house just got foreclosed on. They're not about to give me a downpayment for my house, you know? They really can't.)
We sold that Nebraska house in 2008 to move to NoVA, and broke even. Nebraska isn't a bubble market, so the value of the house hadn't changed significantly in the time that we owned it, but at least we didn't lose money.
So. This means that we moved to Fairfax County with a family, living on one modest income (by FFX standards), and still with not nearly enough saved to make a substantial downpayment. Plus, our brief stint of homeownhership in Nebraska had disqualified us from the advantages of being first-time buyers, like the tax credit. The system is not set up sympathetically for second-time buyers who just didn't make any money the first time.
Thus, we rent. We could buy a condo in the $200K - $250K range if we wanted to. Or we could move out to PWC and buy a TH or even a SFH, but then my husband would have a long commute. And we're not okay with that. Living close-in is important to us. My husband wants to be home to put the kids to bed at night, you know? Renting works for us. It keeps our housing expenses reasonable, and keeps the commute short, and gives us a yard for the kids to play in.
Philosophically, we are not people who believe that homeownership is a valuable end in and of itself. And with the recent market turbulence, there are actually a lot of forward-thinking people out there studying that question - what are the social costs of homeownership vesus the benefits, and is it *such* a noble goal that our government has to dabble in a nearly absurd amount of social engineering to try to get us all there? Going for homeownership-for-everyone-no-matter-what didn't do us a whole lot of good recently, after all, just ask half of Florida. While I don't expect a sea change on this any time soon, I do love that the question is even being asked. And for us, well, my husband is Canadian - he didn't grow up with this "homeownership or die" culture, since they don't have a mortgage interest tax deduction there. I would like to buy someday despite all my ramblings, but I think my husband would be happy never buying, ever.
Honestly, the only thing that really sucks about it is the reaction of other people, who often believe there is something wrong with renters. There is a stigma. Not when you're 25 and single, or even 45 and single. But when you have a family, people really think you should own a house or else they don't want to take you seriously. I guarantee you my credit is better than my landlord's (in fact, my only real hesitation about renting is that an irresponsible landlord will get my home foreclosed out from under me). I don't take on financial committments I can't follow through on.
Still, it's what is best for our family until we have more money saved (probably until I go back to work, but I don't know when that will be.) And I'm okay with that. I don't feel like anybody owes me homeownership in Fairfax County. I don't feel discriminated against. I have a nice roof over my head.
I grew up being told that the financial "rule of thumb" was never to spend more than thrice your gross annual household income on housing, and since this area's median housing price far exceeds the median household income there's no way that people are going to be able to argue with me that the housing market in NoVA is not overdue for "correction" so that people can comfortably afford housing costs unless employers here decide to become generous and jack up everyone's salaries (which is unlikely since salaries here are already the highest, on average, in the nation). For me to be considered "low-income" in NoVA on a salary that is considered "normal" in MOST areas of the country is solid evidence that the market is overinflated.
Scran, you either willfully ignored the posters who replied between this message and your last one or else are so caught up in your self-righteousness that you still don't see the relationship between housing prices, salary, and wealth.
Yes, you will be waiting for a damn long time if you expect to enter the housing market for a SFH single or double incomed. But that's not how you do it. You buy that small condo or townhome in PG or some other area that <shudder> has chain stores, a long commute with few public transit options, and not many parks or trails, but sells within that 2.5-3.0 multiplier you mention. But you know what? After a few years, you sell that condo and use the gain as a large downpayment on your TH in Manassas. A few more years, and fortuitous market timing, and then you can buy your SFH in Fairfax City, or approach whatever ideal location is for you.
At each of the above steps, you buy within your budget. However, as you trade up from starter home to better, that equity, that wealth, enables you to eventually buy that $500K SFH without spending 4-6 times your income on the mortgage (because selling price does not necessarily equal mortgage).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScranBarre
I see that once again all of the "you can't say anything negative about NoVA because everything's fine the way it is" cheerleaders are chiming on in. I have chosen a lucrative career path, and it's mind-boggling and mind-numbing to consider that even if I was earning $100,000 annually it would be very difficult, if not even impossible as I'm going to illustrate below in an example, to comfortably afford a home on my own
No, Scran, it's not the cheerleaders defending NoVA, it's the people who have paid their dues (what an old-fashioned notion) to work their way up the housing ladder, and get annoyed with know-it-all 22 year-olds who have spent all of a weekend in the area who whine about not being able to buy their dream home within the next 3 years. Yes, it sucks to have to temporarily endure some sacrifices, but that's life. And you know what, that's what builds character, fortitude, and empathy towards other individuals and families who are starting out on their own.
When you're making $100k, heck, when you're making $60k as a single adult, you can certainly get in on the ground floor of homeownership like Christine, normie, and the others have. But you don't want the ground floor. Heck, I don't want the ground floor. But when my wife and I hope to buy next year for our family, we know that's what we're going to have to start with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScranBarre
Justifying this by telling me "It's the same way in Coastal California and New York City so what's the big deal?" is also laughable because you can't for one second compare the gorgeous coastal bluffs of California or the pulse of Manhattan---unique qualities that can't be replicated anywhere for any price---to what you get in Fairfax County---more or less generic suburbia that in most cases can be found on the periphery of nearly any other major metropolitan area---only here it is at an inflated price compared to the others.
You think all of CA is beautiful coastal bluffs? You want to see sprawl? Take a look at the "communities" that sprung up out of nowhere in the last decade in Southern CA. They were built in freakin' deserts, not on the coastal highway. They're filled with nothing but big box and chain restaurants, and have no central community. The equivalent to Fairfax isn't Manhattan but the Hudson River communities and towns that look an awful lot like Fairfax County but are even more expensive, if anything, than Fairfax. What does Fairfax and NoVA offer? Well, access to Washington, DC, with all the museums and monuments and prestige. Historical sites so numerous that they are almost blase. Believe me, having just moved from Chicago and central Illinois, VA has a whole lot more cultural and historical sites. And that doesn't even include the option of either a mountain or beach vacation within a 2-3 hour drive.
Is NoVA perfect? No. I don't pretend it to be. I would love a shorter commute, lower house prices while keeping my salary, and my ideal home. It that reasonable, though? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScranBarre
Show me singles who are buying homes today, and let me know how old they are when they're finally able to buy as compared to how old prior generations of singles were when they were able to afford their own home. Let me know what salary level they've attained. Let me know what the home sales price was and how much of their take-home budget they plan to devote to housing, and then show me that they're not "house-poor." I'd love to be proven wrong that it's not just about impossible for a single person to purchase their own property at a reasonable age.
Well, Scran, there haven't been too many generations of singles who have bought a home. Historically, most single people (especially women) lived with their parents until marriage (and often for a while after marriage to save that 20%). Those who moved out shared roommates in an apartment. And when the rare single did buy a SFH, they bought a starter home with only 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom, maybe 900 square ft. They often needed to put a lot of sweat equity in the place to make it habitable. Young families did the same thing.
The reason I'm moving to NoVA is because I can "jump start" my career track here with quick promotions and salary bumps while also affordably attending graduate school and obtaining my CPA. After several years I'll be very marketable to a company in a city that is more attuned to my specific tastes---a place where I could earn $75,000 AND be able to own a home.
Your boss doesn't mind that you talk openly about your plans to let him spend a lot of time and money training you, so that you can then give him the finger and find a job with another company?
Wow, he must be the nicest boss in the world. He also doesn't mind you telling us details about your salary and bonus schedule? Why would you ever want to leave a nice boss like that?
IMO, if your boss is really such an easy-going person, that's a reason to stay in a job right there. Nice bosses are not the norm.
When you dump this job to go work for a new company in Pittsburgh, the odds are you won't get such a good boss again, and you'll be one of those people who regret moving just to find a cheaper house. IMO, having a good boss is much better than having an inexpensive house. If you've been lucky enough to get a good boss in your very first job, I'd hold on to that job.
And the same people who scream about needing more affordable homes are the same ones who sneer at the affordable neighborhoods that do exist. Look at how many people deride Sterling Park (and most of them haven't even been to Sterling Park, they just know it's the popular place to sneer at).
Sterling Park may not be as deluxe as the wealthier neighborhoods, but it's not a slum. It's a good place to get a starter home, IMO. When people gripe that there's no place for police officers, teachers, etc. to live, look again. Not everyone can afford a home in McLean but even the less wealthy neighborhoods in NOVA are decent places to live.
Amen! A good post. I have been a booster of the Sterling area since moving back here in 1992. I have sold homes in all areas of Sterling and would recommend it to anyone. There is a sense of entitlement in some of the Pennsylvania gentleman's postings which I find incomprehensible. Why should a first time home buyer expect to be able to afford a home in McLean or Great Falls? Buy what you can afford, FHA offers loans with only 3.5% down and VHDA also has some great programs. You will be living with people in the same income range as you, do you think you deserve better? It is what it is. The market sets the price, not wishful thinking.
LOL, so true. And the same people who scream about needing more affordable homes are the same ones who sneer at the affordable neighborhoods that do exist.
I'm not one of those people, and even though I'm considered upper-middle-class by Scranton's standards I still had some wonderful friendships with peers who would be considered "impoverished" by NoVA's standards, so it would be nice if you'd reserve that assumption. I was actually committed to looking into Herndon before people told me not to move there because it had a high Hispanic population (as if that was supposed to be some sort of deal-breaker, but I digress). While still not writing off Herndon for that boorish reason I then decided that the only place I COULD find a place within walking distance of many amenities due to the sprawling nature of the area while still being within the range I needed to be in for my coverage territory would be near to Reston Town Center, which, while only offering generally expensive stores and restaurants, at least also offered a movie theater, ice skating rink, farmers' market, free concerts, proximity to other single young professionals, and some other perks. If my part of Reston was an "affordable income area," I'd still choose to settle here for that very reason of trying to minimize my usage of a vehicle. I can only hope Reston Town Center continues to expand outwards and upwards, becoming a viable 24/7 downtown area for the region. I would have gladly considered any "affordable income neighborhood" that was also better designed in respect to mixed-use zoning and being able to walk/bike/mass transit to most amenities, but since the NIMBYs delayed the Silver Line with their unreasonable fears of the "element" of the city pouring in for so long my options were severely limited out here.
Amen! A good post. I have been a booster of the Sterling area since moving back here in 1992. I have sold homes in all areas of Sterling and would recommend it to anyone. There is a sense of entitlement in some of the Pennsylvania gentleman's postings which I find incomprehensible. Why should a first time home buyer expect to be able to afford a home in McLean or Great Falls? Buy what you can afford, FHA offers loans with only 3.5% down and VHDA also has some great programs. You will be living with people in the same income range as you, do you think you deserve better? It is what it is. The market sets the price, not wishful thinking.
I was admittedly unaware at the time that there were ownership options in more affordable price ranges because judging by this forum's continuous talk about $400,000+ homes I thought those were the only ones available. I have since done more research and found some livable condos for under $250,000 and will aim to save for one of those instead if I should happen to decide to stay in the region and work my way up to the eventual goal of a small brick row home in Georgetown, Dupont Circle, Old Town Alexandria, etc. I assumed incorrectly there, so unlike some others on this forum I'm secure enough to admit when I've erred and apologize for when I do. I apologize for not realizing that there are options, albeit not really a step up from my current rental unit, for ownership in lower price ranges that I could be able to afford by age 30.
Your boss doesn't mind that you talk openly about your plans to let him spend a lot of time and money training you, so that you can then give him the finger and find a job with another company?
Wow, he must be the nicest boss in the world. He also doesn't mind you telling us details about your salary and bonus schedule? Why would you ever want to leave a nice boss like that?
IMO, if your boss is really such an easy-going person, that's a reason to stay in a job right there. Nice bosses are not the norm.
When you dump this job to go work for a new company in Pittsburgh, the odds are you won't get such a good boss again, and you'll be one of those people who regret moving just to find a cheaper house. IMO, having a good boss is much better than having an inexpensive house. If you've been lucky enough to get a good boss in your very first job, I'd hold on to that job.
My boss even grudgingly admitted to me that the reason why turnover was so high in my new position was because after several years we inevitably become very "marketable" to other higher-paying firms who tug at us with tempting offers, much to his chagrin, as he then has to endure the torture of seeing valuable employees leaving while having to re-train their replacements, who always run the risk of being less productive. I'm very happy though with the conditions, atmosphere, and surroundings of my new job and am firmly committed towards devoting a 110% effort this position as I did with my last job in Pennsylvania, where I really stood out from my fellow sales professionals. My boss seems to have a zeal for his job and a wonderful attitude, and the co-workers I've already met mesh well with me. I hate to say this but I might try to become a workaholic just to enjoy doing something on such a limited budget.
The era of someone taking a job at 22 and remaining there until age 65 is just about over. With downsizing, transfers, outsourcing, relocation, etc. the "loyalty" factor between employers to their employees and vice-versa has greatly shifted. I saw this with my father, who works in the I/T industry and has been shifted all over the creation at the whim of past employers. I stuck with my last employer through thick and thin from 2005-2009, but they knew when they hired me that once I graduated from college the odds of me sticking around working for $11/hr. in an unrelated field were slim, hence why I moved on, giving over three weeks' notice and going above and beyond in training my replacement to ease the transition for my former employer. I would never dream of just cutting ties and letting an employer scramble, "at-will" employment or not, because that's very selfish on your behalf when an employer took a gamble on you to begin with when you were hired.
What good is a great career if you're unhappy in your surroundings? I'm trying to remain upbeat about Fairfax County for its proximity to DC, Downtown Leesburg, the festivals, the diversity, the intellectual population, etc., I really truly am, but the "dog-eat-dog" atmosphere that I even sense from this forum, along with the lack of walkable neighborhoods, the family-oriented atmosphere (when Lord knows I'll probably never be lucky enough to have a family of my own and will stick out like a sore thumb), the over-inflated housing market, the obsession many have with material objects, etc. will probably burn me out eventually and make my life feel empty inside. I'd love to put in for a transfer within my same employer and be fortunate enough to eventually land in a place like Pittsburgh, a city where I've always yearned to live, but for right now I am being placed in an area where my skills can be put to their best use, and in turn for my employer taking the investment in me I'll reciprocate by doing a great job despite the location.
I have a feeling that MOST people move to Fairfax County because of the tempting job market, not because they did a national search for an area they'd like to live in first and THEN look for a job. I would have then moved to Pittsburgh jobless on my own accord first after graduation to be ultimately happy, but then I'd have no guarantee of finding a job in my field. At least now I can just hope for the best in Fairfax County and eventually transfer within the same employer to the branch in that city.
Who I'd also be interested to hear from also are stay-at-home parents with a few children who have their spouses being the only bread-winner for their families. When did you buy your home? How much of your current net budget is being devoted to housing costs? How old were you when you were able to comfortably afford a home on one income? How much does your spouse earn, and, more importantly, did he/she finance the home on his/her own or did you both pool your financial resources?
That's us! My husband (then-boyfriend) and I first moved in together in 1999, when we were both 26. He had been sharing an apartment in Rosslyn, and I was paying too much for a 1BR on the Arlington side of Baileys Crossroads (right behind Bad Habits, for you old-timers). The rental market was tight, and we lucked into a 3BR house in Falls Church - right between the WFC and EFC Metro, McLean High School district, etc. I think we were paying around $1200/mo plus utilities. We both had ridiculous amounts of credit card and student loan debt - neither of us comes from money, and we met as students at Georgetown. At the time, we were both lowly tech support worker bees, making mid-30s.
We saved and scrimped and saved some more. We paid down all of our credit card debt, and most of my husband's student loans (I have a Master's, so I'll be paying until retirement. ) We got married, and paid for our wedding ourselves. We progressed in our jobs, and my husband made the crucial career decision to move into the sales organization as a sales engineer - and suddenly he was making a lot more money than I was. After a few years, we started looking at houses to buy. We were reverse-commuting to Ashburn, and my husband had this mental block about living outside the Beltway. But the prices were going up, and we quickly realized that we could barely afford to buy the rental we were living in - a tiny rundown 1950s rambler that needed serious structural work. We have friends who live in Reston and Herndon, and we looked in their neighborhoods, but we faced the same problem - older houses (1970s) that would need a lot of work right away.
So we decided to go new and put in a contract in Brambleton, which is about four miles from where we were working. It was fall of 2002, and our purchase price was $450K. We had about a year to finish saving up the down payment. We had always planned to have children, and that I would stay home with them, so we based our mortgage affordability on my husband's salary alone (and you'd better believe that the builder tried to upsell us to a bigger model, based on both of our incomes - but we held firm.) We closed in fall of 2003, doing an 80-10-10, which we refinanced into one loan after a year, thanks to market appreciation. But by the time we moved in, neither of us worked for the same company (yay, corporate fraud and bankruptcy) - he had moved on to a firm in Herndon, and I was working as a GS-12 for a small Federal agency in L'Enfant Plaza. I had a 1.5 hour commute each way, driving to Herndon-Monroe, taking the 980 to WFC Metro, then Metro to work. It sucked. I did it for two and a half years, then decided it was too much. I quit in 2006. Except for a few months last year when my husband had a slow quarter and I temped, we have had only his income since. It varies, since he's in sales, but mid-100s is a fair ballpark. Oh, and we adopted newborn twins last fall. My husband's company has an adoption subsidy which helped us afford that.
How do we make it work? As I said, we always planned on having only one income. We rented for four years, paying off our debt and saving up for a down payment. We bought further out than we wanted (though I love it here and I'm really happy with our decision). My husband has a lot of responsibility on his shoulders, and can't decide on a whim that he wants to be a teacher or go to grad school or whatever. We both drive Hyundais. We don't waste money on designer clothes or haircuts or manicures. Our luxuries are the occasional happy hour, HBO, and once-a-month maid service. Coupons, sales, and staycations. No credit card abuse. We've never had a home-equity loan or line of credit. We don't try to "keep up with the Joneses." Forget the Joneses. They're in foreclosure.
Wow, that was long. Here are the short answers to your questions: We bought in 2003. Our mortgage is about $3100 (and includes our homeowners insurance and property taxes), which is about 25% of our gross income. We were both 30 years old when we bought our house. My husband makes mid-100s, but we both were working when saving up our down payment of $45K (however, we were probably making in the low 100s combined at the time when we were saving up the money).
CDMurphy, thanks for typing out what might have been one of the best replies I've read on this forum in quite some time (I'm only sad I can't rep you again so would someone else please do me that favor for a well-written post?) Also, you should know by now that there is no need to apologize for length, as if you have something valuable to add to a discussion you shouldn't try to limit yourself.
It's reading a story like yours that provides people with me hope that we could eventually live the same dream lives of those who purchased in NoVA before the bubble started to rise with home prices outpacing annual salary adjustments. Granted though you did have the advantage of dual incomes at that point in your life where you and your better half were both able to work/save/invest, etc. to pay off old debts and strive together in your joint futures whereas I won't have that edge afforded to me.
Most of the people judging me don't realize that I'm likely to forever be a single-income householder whereas most of them now have a spouse who, even while not working now, helped to get them to the point where they are today through working in their past and/or pooling their resources. They then assume that I want the "gravy without having to work for the potatoes," so to speak, but that is not the case. Your particular case shows realistically how someone could forge a path to their dreams being realized with the help of another person along the way and should be of support to couples on here who likewise are wondering if they'll ever be able to afford their own places, but what recourse is there for those of us forced to go it alone? I don't have a wealthy family to fall back on. I don't have a significant other, and even if I did I wouldn't move us in together due to the likely disapproval of my family as well as out of respect to the conservatives in the region who likely wouldn't want a same-sex couple as their neighbors. I'll be living alone and working my way up from scratch. I just don't foresee how someone making $41,000 annually right now is ever going to be able to become wealthy enough to buy his modest brick row house in a neighborhood of my dreams in Metro DC (but I can without a doubt in Pittsburgh, hence my fixation upon it). It's just very discouraging to set a goal and then realize that even through hard work and sacrifice it might never come to fruition or come to reality at a stage in life that wouldn't permit one to enjoy it for very long.
P.S. For those that didn't catch it in my opening: REP CDMURPHY!
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) We got married, and paid for our wedding ourselves. We progressed in our jobs, and my husband made the crucial career decision to move into the sales organization as a sales engineer - and suddenly he was making a lot more money than I was. After a few years, we started looking at houses to buy. We were reverse-commuting to Ashburn, and my husband had this mental block about living outside the Beltway. But the prices were going up, and we quickly realized that we could barely afford to buy the rental we were living in - a tiny rundown 1950s rambler that needed serious structural work. We have friends who live in Reston and Herndon, and we looked in their neighborhoods, but we faced the same problem - older houses (1970s) that would need a lot of work right away. 
I don't have a wealthy family to fall back on. I don't have a significant other, and even if I did I wouldn't move us in together due to the likely disapproval of my family as well as out of respect to the conservatives in the region who likely wouldn't want a same-sex couple as their neighbors. I'll be living alone and working my way up from scratch. I just don't foresee how someone making $41,000 annually right now is ever going to be able to become wealthy enough to buy his modest brick row house in a neighborhood of my dreams in Metro DC (but I can without a doubt in Pittsburgh, hence my fixation upon it). It's just very discouraging to set a goal and then realize that even through hard work and sacrifice it might never come to fruition or come to reality at a stage in life that wouldn't permit one to enjoy it for very long.
