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Really? That is interesting to hear. We just moved to Old Town, (North West side) and from our condo to the Braddock metro there seems to be a lot of public housing, streets and streets of it.
I had always heard the South East side was the place to be in Old Town and it is very nice with all the amazing townhouses, some of them huge historic ones that just make my heart sing! But our Realtor said there is a lot of section 8 housing in the South East Quadrant as well, people just assume there isn't because it doesn't have that "public housing" look. I also heard that the newer Chatham Village was able to be built as long as there was section 8 housing made available there, I heard, (please mind this is just what we were told by our Realtor), that 52 townhomes had to be low income housing in Chatham Village.
Welcome, poster, to Alexandria VA! I live three blocks south of you, in one of the many attached brick homes, been there for almost a decade.
Also, your realtor is an honest one, who told you correctly. Chatham Square is mixed-income housing that replaced public housing. Most of the displaced public housing residents chose to use some kind of voucher system to move to other neighborhoods rather than live in concentrated low-income housing.
I want to correct the notion of some posters that you can't find good single family housing close to DC at a decent price. Several homes are available in the Old Town zip code (22314) for under $500K and while they are not in SE Old Town, they are in my neighborhood in NW Old Town, where you can walk to metros, walk along King Street, and walk to the parks by the Potomac, where it's safe and pleasan to live, and where people of all races and walks of life live together and genuinely care for each other as neighbors. For your kids, we have a new school superintendent who wants to start an IB K-8 program in the nearby school. We also just elected a new school board member, an education consultant by profession, whose child will be starting at that school this fall.
I want to correct the notion of some posters that you can't find good single family housing close to DC at a decent price. Several homes are available in the Old Town zip code (22314) for under $500K <snip>
Sorry, I think you're mistaken here. There are no SFH's available under $500k in that zip code. There are 11 townhomes under $500k, one as cheap as $350k. Of course, that one is a 1 bed, 1 bath unit.
Everything else is $400k+. I'm sorry, but while that is certainly market price, it's not decent or affordable for ordinary Joes and Janes.
You need to view things in the long-term. Here in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, PA where you can get a modest yet updated older home for $100,000, it is not at all uncommon to find people buying their first single-family homes in their early-20s (sadly most already have a couple of kids by then, but I digress), even with one income of $35,000-$40,000. However, in most circumstances the trade-off of being able to purchase a home right away and build up some equity is the fact that salaries, for the most part, are static with very conservative annual raises being awarded by most employers. With a starting salary of roughly $42,000 and a first-year starting bonus of just over $4,000 I'm going to be literally "just scraping by" in a 1 BR/1 BA apartment in Reston. However, when I'm 24 I'll be earning over $60,000, and perhaps by the time I'm 25 or 26 I'll have both my MBA and CPA, making me more marketable to another employer who may be willing to compensate me $65,000-$70,000 for my talents and skills. Back in Scranton at age 25 or 26 I'd go from earning a starting salary of $35,000 to probably earning about $45,000 after five years, so by the time I'm 30 I could realistically be earning twice the salary in Metro DC that I would have been able to have achieved in Northeastern Pennsylvania, and at a time when housing prices are on the rise there due to the influx of higher-earning power-commuters from NYC/NJ you don't want to be in a situation of such slow upwards vertical mobility in your profession.
I'm trying to move down to Reston with an open mind and a friendly heart. Even though I don't like suburban living I'm committed to making lemonade out of lemons and pitching in to help make my community a better place. My goal is to live frugally for years in my modest 1 BR/1 BA apartment, banking as much money as I can, and then putting down a HUGE down payment on a home in an area where I'd feel like a better fit (most likely Pittsburgh). I'd be happy living in a small row house in Old Town Alexandria, but would I realistically ever be able to "responsibly" (i.e. no begging tax payers for a bail out) afford one on a lone CPA's salary? Not likely. Could I take a cut in pay from $75,000-$80,000 at age 30 to perhaps $50,000 to move from NoVA to Pittsburgh and live much more comfortably there on that salary than I could here on this salary? Without a doubt, especially if I have a very small mortgage payment (if any at all).
I hate the fact that I know this reply will make everyone hate me even more than they already do, but I just don't see what makes Fairfax County so much "better" than many other metropolitan areas to justify the outrageous cost-of-living. There's a bunch of tract houses, chain stores, traffic, strip malls, and a few faux town centers thrown in for good measure. You can see the SAME THING in a place like Raleigh/Durham, where you could also pay $200,000 less for a home and only take a marginal cut in pay in many cases. There aren't many "uniquities" in NoVA to contrast it from many other areas to justify cutting off your arm and leg to buy a house here. What does Fairfax County have over Raleigh/Durham, for example, to justify that large disparity in housing affordability? Both have a blend of sprawl, nice small towns, and proximity to urban amenities. I'm not trying to slam NoVA, but why does everyone say "that's the price one must pay in order to live here" as if $600,000 for a home is a "bargain" for such a "superior" area. The area is NICE, but it's not THAT nice.
Your own example is a lot more than a "marginal cut in pay."
And for many of us, Raleigh/Durham isn't an option because the jobs we do literally do not exist there. The NoVA job market is unique - not just because it is relatively robust during a recession, but also because there is only one federal government and it happens to be just down the road.
Some people do think it's worth paying 600K or whatever for literally some of the best public schools in the country. You've told us all about 64525712848960 times that you don't agree with this viewpoint, and we all know how you shine brilliantly despite your mediocre school district, and if I tell you it is the most inspiring and heartwarming story I've ever heard in my life and that you're a beacon to all of us, will you please not repeat it?
But, despite your brilliant glow, a lot of people still think the schools here are worth paying for. And that having the Smithsonians a short drive or Metro ride away enriches childhoods. And until you're a parent, I think it's pretty foolish to argue with people about the decisions they make for their children.
You also have to remember that a lot of these people do have huge downpayments already, because they were fortunate or lucky enough to own homes before or during the early phases of the bubble, and were able to sell them at a hefty profit. For someone who earns 200K selling his house, which even now is still not unheard of, he's got a HUGE downpayment on that 500K house. That 500K house really doesn't seem like that big of a stretch for him, since he's only mortgaging 300 of it. The point is, not everyone here is in your situation or making decisions from the same vantage point as you. Not everyone who is buying these houses is having to cut off limbs to do it.
I rent. I can't buy a 600K house or even a 300K house for that matter. And I still like NoVA a *lot* better than the last place I lived, where I had a very nice house for 200K. You know, I don't even know why. It's got a lot of the same chain restaurants and strip malls as the last place I lived. Logially, maybe I "shouldn't" like NoVA so much. But I do. I meet intelligent people from diverse backgrounds here all the time. Nobody blinks twice if you have an accent or an odd story. Everyone in my last city had the same upbringing. It was dull. NoVA is not.
Is it worth 600K? You know, I don't even ask that question because I don't have 600K and I might never. Is it fair that housing here is so pricey? No, it's not. But enough people apparently want to be here that those prices happen. Maybe everyone's just drinking the same crazy Kool-Aid, then. But I'm still happy to live here anyway.
Last edited by athousandlogins; 05-08-2009 at 01:07 PM..
Reason: grammar! :)
Is this a great country, or what? People are free to make choices about where they'd like to live. If they don't think that the DC metro area is worth paying $600K for a starter house, they are free to move to a small town in the midwest where cheap housing is plentiful and great jobs are not.
[quote=Mike From NIU;8715697]Sorry, I think you're mistaken here. There are no SFH's available under $500k in that zip code. There are 11 townhomes under $500k, one as cheap as $350k. Of course, that one is a 1 bed, 1 bath unit.
Not only that, I'm talking about my own neighbors and my own neighborhood. Under $500K. If you want the web site email me privately but I am under the impression we aren't here to sell things but to share information.
And I'm sharing information about a part of the world that I live in and people I know pretty well.
One thing I'd like to point out is that $600K is not required to have a home here. That's certainly buys you a nice house. But a regular house can be had for $400k or better get a condo or a townhouse. Is a single family house really neccesary? Also don't forget all the foreclosures. I saw a townhouse near me for $30K now I wonder what shape that townhouse is in. I'm kinda curious how much it would cost to fix it up. Maybe it's liveable already just not very nice. I wonder. My point is that $600K is not the minimum for a house.
Now Old Town? That's a different story. I love Old Town but boy oh boy it's expensive still not as bad as some parts of DC though.
Your own example is a lot more than a "marginal cut in pay."
To the untamed eye it is, but you must take the large disparity in cost-of-living into account. It is quite possible for a single person to live more comfortably on a $50,000 salary in Pittsburgh than a colleague making $75,000 in Fairfax County, and both places offer a great quality-of-life. If you're educated, experienced, and have marketable skills finding a position that earns you either salary in either city shouldn't be very difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
And for many of us, Raleigh/Durham isn't an option because the jobs we do literally do not exist there. The NoVA job market is unique - not just because it is relatively robust during a recession, but also because there is only one federal government and it happens to be just down the road.
In some cases this is true. In other cases it is not. Many Federal agencies have branch offices in various cities all over the nation, including my own agency, which also, to my delight, has a branch office in Pittsburgh that I can request a transfer to someday. I'm sure many (not all) people who work for the government and claim they are "stuck" near Washington due to the specialization of their position could either request a transfer to another city or indeed locate a comparable position in the private sector in another city. If my father can find I/T management work in a socially regressive place like Interior Pennsylvania, then I'm sure most government-oriented careers in and around Washington have replacements as well in other cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
Some people do think it's worth paying 600K or whatever for literally some of the best public schools in the country. You've told us all about 64525712848960 times that you don't agree with this viewpoint, and we all know how you shine brilliantly despite your mediocre school district, and if I tell you it is the most inspiring and heartwarming story I've ever heard in my life and that you're a beacon to all of us, will you please not repeat it?
I will continue to repeat it until it sinks in. I showed other people that thread to show them the way that some people, instead of already giving thanks that they live in a county where nearly every public school is above both the state AND national average in terms of academics, were competing and vying for the "best of the best of the best," and they, too, were in disbelief at how uber-competitive many in that thread were acting, so please don't try to act as if I'm in some way alone in my opinions on that issue. I stand firm by my comments that if you, as parents invest your time in your child's education (time goes much further than throwing around any dollar figure), and if your child has the internal discipline needed to take control of his or her own environment and WANT to learn, then he/she can succeed in just about any classroom setting. It's disheartening to see people telling others that they NEED to pay $750,000 on a home instead of $550,000 on a home if they want their children to go to "good schools" when, by MOST outside observers' standards, BOTH schools would be "good schools."
I think all of the flaming my opinion on that public school-related matter garnered me was the displaced venting of people who realized that I was right that in the long-term they shouldn't have paid such a high premium for housing to send their children to the "gold ribbon" school when the "silver star" school would have given their child the same great opportunities in life for a fraction of the cost. Case in point? I'm one of many derived from my sub-par high school and "never heard of" college that are earning the SAME STARTING SALARIES as those whose parents invested $100,000 more over the years in their educations via tutors, increased mortgages to live in the "better" districts, higher tuition bills, etc. Money can't buy success, and the sooner some people realize that the better. People need to stop spiting me for pointing out what a lot of people not involved in the "need the BEST school or else" bubble of that thread already know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
But, despite your brilliant glow, a lot of people still think the schools here are worth paying for. And that having the Smithsonians a short drive or Metro ride away enriches childhoods. And until you're a parent, I think it's pretty foolish to argue with people about the decisions they make for their children.
MANY have agreed with me that a "terrible" school in Fairfax County is still a GOOD school in the eyes of much of the nation, hence why I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive about this particular point. I plan to adopt children someday, and I would have no apprehensions about sending them to some of the schools in Fairfax County that some have said to avoid at all costs after speaking with people who really did have children in those districts and had limited complaints. Once again, money can't buy your child success. I went to school beside some very affluent teenagers who made destructive decisions in their lives that tarnished their chances at successful futures because their parents were too busy commuting/"making the big bucks" to invest enough time with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
You also have to remember that a lot of these people do have huge downpayments already, because they were fortunate or lucky enough to own homes before or during the early phases of the bubble, and were able to sell them at a hefty profit. For someone who earns 200K selling his house, which even now is still not unheard of, he's got a HUGE downpayment on that 500K house. That 500K house really doesn't seem like that big of a stretch for him, since he's only mortgaging 300 of it. The point is, not everyone here is in your situation or making decisions from the same vantage point as you. Not everyone who is buying these houses is having to cut off limbs to do it.
Correct. However, what recourse is available for those of us who weren't alive when housing prices hadn't escaped the realm of being "reasonable?" Another person in this thread said they were only earning $50,000 as a single person when they bought their first home. Good for them. They were old enough to have lived at a time when it was not "necessary" to earn six-figures just to have a HOUSE. Now if I were to stay in my current career track it would take me until I was perhaps 35 to rise to a salary level high enough to justify finally being able to purchase my first modest home in Alexandria as a single working professional. In most other parts of the nation single young professionals could conceivably afford to buy their first home years prior to that milestone, and in the case of my hometown area as I said earlier I'm friends with dually-employed 20-year-old couples who are already homeowners while they work full-time and go to college. Not all of us have the "luxury" of being able to have a dual-income household. After all, for some of us it is still not legal for marriage (but that's for a separate discussion).
There are no long-term solutions for anyone in my situation besides renting. Even if I were earning $100,000 I couldn't comfortably afford a home of my own in Northern Virginia going by the rule that you shouldn't purchase a home that is more than three times the value of your annual gross income. For a typical $500,000 single-family home here I'd have to be earning $170,000 or so on my own. How many single people do you know earn that much, even in their mid-40s! Those housing prices are simply over-inflated, and I can hope that they simply continue to come crashing back down to reality. In some ways this is a bias against single people purchasing a home, is it not, as while it's not unreasonable to have a married couple with each spouse earning $70,000-$80,000 it IS unreasonable to expect most singles to make that combined salary on their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
I rent. I can't buy a 600K house or even a 300K house for that matter. And I still like NoVA a *lot* better than the last place I lived, where I had a very nice house for 200K. You know, I don't even know why. It's got a lot of the same chain restaurants and strip malls as the last place I lived. Logially, maybe I "shouldn't" like NoVA so much. But I do. I meet intelligent people from diverse backgrounds here all the time. Nobody blinks twice if you have an accent or an odd story. Everyone in my last city had the same upbringing. It was dull. NoVA is not.
This I'll bend over backwards to agree with you with. I don't usually make a habit of eavesdropping in public areas, but given the circumstances of me wanting to learn as much as I could about the area in a limited amount of time I'm not ashamed to admit that I did partake in that activity quite a bit when I was in town, and boy was I impressed! So many people were so intellectually-driven and very well-educated. In my area "intelligent" conversation has mostly revolved around high school football games, alcohol, hunting, and liberal/gay/minority-bashing. In NoVA people were talking spiritedly and were INFORMED about foreign affairs, national politics, the economy, travel, social justice issues, etc. I felt like a kid in a candy store who had to bite his tongue to not dive right into the conversations along with them!
My main complaint is that I don't see NoVA as being unique enough for my own personal tastes to justify the exorbitant housing prices in relation to the what are already, in many cases, GENEROUS salaries, meaning that high-earners on a national scale still can't even keep up with the cost-of-living. That should be a concern. Downtown Leesburg was great. I like Reston Town Center. The Smithsonians will be my favorite hang-out spot (once the Silver Line is built at least). There are many reasons to like NoVA, but there are many reasons to like MANY places, and EVERY area I've ever been to has had charming small towns, sprawl, museums, parks, etc., just like NoVA. Nobody on this forum has been able to successfully prove to me yet just what that "edge" is that would convince so many people to over-extend themselves for so long. I just don't see it. I never would have been attracted on my own accord to consider NoVA as a relocation destination if not for the enticing job offer. Other than "moving here for work" I'd be curious to hear about people who moved to Fairfax County for other reasons---the ones who picked Fairfax County specifically because it was the "best place to live."
Quote:
Originally Posted by athousandlogins
Is it worth 600K? You know, I don't even ask that question because I don't have 600K and I might never. Is it fair that housing here is so pricey? No, it's not. But enough people apparently want to be here that those prices happen. Maybe everyone's just drinking the same crazy Kool-Aid, then. But I'm still happy to live here anyway.
Good for you being happy in NoVA. I'll be content here, but I'll probably never be "happy." My ideal environments in the Washington DC Metropolitan area (Georgetown, Old Town Alexandria, Ballston) are all going to be far beyond my budget, quite possibly forever, leaving me with living in a place like Reston---the poor man's version of those areas. I'll live here for a number of years, make friends, help volunteer in the community, and try to make a positive impact upon life in NoVA for other people. However, I just don't see how anyone can find any sense of soul in a place like Reston. There are neighborhoods here in Scranton where each home on each block has a different story to tell about the very same folks who built them back in the 1890s. Meanwhile, people consider that ugly high-rise tower adjacent to Lake Anne to be "historic?" I just don't think I'll ever understand things like that, but once again to each his or her own.
NoVA has MANY assets, but if you could take a pay cut and STILL have a more comfortable lifestyle in another city, then you can't really fault people for pursuing that. I'd be happy as a pig in a blanket (you probably thought I was going to say something else there! LOL!) living in a small row house in Pittsburgh in need of some tender-loving care because my home would have historic charm and I'd be able to walk to most amenities (or take mass transit). I could EASILY afford something like that on a fraction of my NoVA salary and still be better off for it in terms of quality-of-life. That's eventually the path I'll pursue, using Fairfax County as a stepping stone of sorts.
TO ANYONE:
If people want to bash me for my opinions, then they can go right ahead. What many others besides me have noted is that this particular sub-forum is more "hot-headed" than most others many regularly participate in. A sub-forum should be BALANCED with both positive AND negative feedback, as is the case with most Rust Belt sub-forums, including my own, in which there is a healthy mix of detractors and supporters. In my thread "NoVA is Amazing" (the one with all the photos) I only said VERY FEW complaints (i.e. the spoiled kids my age "posing" at RTC on a Friday night) with overall upstanding praise for the area otherwise, and instead of being happy about the positive 90% of my thread that negative 10% was picked to shreds by some of you in what became yet another thread laced with personal attacks. Why? You'd have to be living in a bubble to think NoVA was a perfect and "flawless" place to live, and by admonishing others for trying to bring some of them to the attention you're only doing others a disservice by not giving them a more balanced point of view. My opinions of NoVA are generally positive, but I'm also not the "bogeyman" because I don't turn a blind eye to its flaws and faults the way some others on this forum would PREFER me to.
I did some research on median incomes and single family home housing prices on Fairfax County's government website. My goal was to determine when the housing bubble in NoVA would likely fully deflate, but I think this also answers the OP's question.
If you look at this chart on the ratio of Fairfax County Average Home Prices compared to Fairfax median income, you will see that as far back as 1992 we have been above a 3.0 ratio. Bankers generally consider a safe housing price-to-income ratio to be between 2 and 3.0. That means if your ratio is at the very least below 3.0 (with ~2 being a more realistic target), you can likely afford the house and aren't at heavy risk of default or being house poor. Unfortunately, NoVA has been in the danger area for a looooong time. This area has never had affordable housing; even before the bubble.
The housing bubble that took off around 2004 greatly worsened things and the housing expense ratio went crazy around the peak of the bubble in 2007. It inflated to a disgustingly high 5.1 in 2007. As of 2009, things have deflated a bit to around 4.5. This is still way too high.
So to answer your question, a typical NoVA household simply can't afford a typical single family home in this area without being house poor or sinking in debt.
Here are the numbers behind the chart:
Last edited by novaslasher; 05-08-2009 at 02:30 PM..
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homes in Alexandria
Those housing prices are simply over-inflated, and I can hope that they simply continue to come crashing back down to reality. In some ways this is a bias against single people purchasing a home, is it not, as while it's not unreasonable to have a married couple with each spouse earning $70,000-$80,000 it IS unreasonable to expect most singles to make that combined salary on their own. 
