Best family neighborhoods in Vienna (Arlington, Reston: sale, apartments, credit)

[saganista]

Then you both work in the private sector and your respective employers are making only Plan-B available to you. All government and most private sector workers (nearly 200K of them in the DC area all told) receive their tax-free transit subsidies above and beyond their regular wages or salaries. You walk up the farecard machine, tap the target, and download the amount of your total monthly fare up to a maximum of $230. That's all there is to it.

[cdmurphy]

Originally Posted by saganista

Then you both work in the private sector and your respective employers are making only Plan-B available to you. All government and most private sector workers (nearly 200K of them in the DC area all told) receive their tax-free transit subsidies above and beyond their regular wages or salaries. You walk up the farecard machine, tap the target, and download the amount of your total monthly fare up to a maximum of $230. That's all there is to it.

Yep. At my former agency, you had a choice of Metrocheks or a parking pass (we leased space in a commercial building with an expensive garage). There was a long wait list for a parking pass, so many people took the Metrocheks.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by JEB77

On reflection, I would question some of the characterizations of the Vienna Woods area and the two local schools.

On reflection, I would question whether you are not now posting for the purpose of nit-picking with me rather than for the purpose of passing on any actually useful information to potential newcomers.

The fact that the oldest homes in Vienna Woods were built in the 1950's does not alter the implication of a statement that the neighborhood was built-out in the 1960's. Meanwhile, Vienna Woods and Tyler Park are not remotely comparable areas, nor are there serious prospects for the substantial gap between them to narrow at any point in the foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by JEB77

I am sympathetic to those who argue that too much emphasis is placed on test scores, and that parental involvement and the quality of individual teachers are more important factors in a child's educational development. It seems to me, however, that some of my fellow Vienna residents want to have it both ways: they frequently emphasize that schools such as Madison and Oakton High are excellent (presumably, at least in part, because the test scores are high), but turn around and dismiss questions about some of the elementary schools as reflecting the skewed perspective of those "who like to read test scores" or as possibly based on ethnic or racial biases.

I'll tell you what. Let's hold everything else constant, but take the Vienna Park Apartments out of the Cunningham Park ES district and plop them down right next door to Westbriar ES. What effect, if any, would you expect to see on the schools' respective test scores? Would you presume that any change was indicative of some suddenly altered relative quality differences between those two schools? Or would you be more likely to conclude that all of Vienna's elementary schools are in fact on a par with each other, and that -- given that the two most reliable predictors of a student's K-12 academic performance are the income and educational levels of his or her parents -- it is the socio-economic composition of the district as a whole that drives a school's test scores up or down? When almost deliberately misleading sites such as GreatSchools.com start offering versions of the statistics they publish that are normalized for such variables, maybe we could start taking them a little more seriously. By suggesting that the unadjusted data can only be explained by the poorer quality of lower-rated schools, you are contributing to that misleading, not helping to avoid it.

[JD984]

Originally Posted by saganista

On reflection, I would question whether you are not now posting for the purpose of nit-picking with me rather than for the purpose of passing on any actually useful information to potential newcomers.

You should impugn my motives if you wish, although I sense that you are simply not accustomed to being challenged on any assertions that you make relating to Vienna or its neighboring communities. I find many of your posts interesting, but at times you pass off your own personal opinions as if they were objective, unassailable facts. Prospective newcomers might find information about aging sections of the Town of Vienna and lower-performing schools at least as relevant as other information that you have previously posted regarding the area for their consideration.

Originally Posted by saganista

The fact that the oldest homes in Vienna Woods were built in the 1950's does not alter the implication of a statement that the neighborhood was built-out in the 1960's. Meanwhile, Vienna Woods and Tyler Park are not remotely comparable areas, nor are there serious prospects for the substantial gap between them to narrow at any point in the foreseeable future.

If you are simply saying that the construction of the older homes in Vienna Woods was not completed until the 1960s, I'd agree. However, if one looks at homes in Vienna Woods that are currently for sale, you will see that the bulk of the older homes were constructed in the 1950s, not the 1960s, and some are in considerably better condition than others.

And, while the area may not be comparable to Tyler Park today or next year, it now has a feel in many parts similar to what Tyler Park or Broyhill Park looked and felt like in the late 1970s. I could see the area improving, if the economy picked up and the trend toward in-fills resumed or, alternatively, taking on more of the current attributes of neighborhoods such as Tyler or Broyhill Park over time. Many of the older houses are fairly similar in scale and appearance.

Originally Posted by saganista

I'll tell you what. Let's hold everything else constant, but take the Vienna Park Apartments out of the Cunningham Park ES district and plop them down right next door to Westbriar ES. What effect, if any, would you expect to see on the schools' respective test scores? Would you presume that any change was indicative of some suddenly altered relative quality differences between those two schools? Or would you be more likely to conclude that all of Vienna's elementary schools are in fact on a par with each other, and that -- given that the two most reliable predictors of a student's K-12 academic performance are the income and educational levels of his or her parents -- it is the socio-economic composition of the district as a whole that drives a school's test scores up or down? When almost deliberately misleading sites such as GreatSchools.com start offering versions of the statistics they publish that are normalized for such variables, maybe we could start taking them a little more seriously. By suggesting that the unadjusted data can only be explained by the poorer quality of lower-rated schools, you are contributing to that misleading, not helping to avoid it.

In response to your hypothesis, I would expect to see the Westbriar test scores decline, just not to the current level of Cunningham Park. The current scores at Cunningham Park reflect the performance of the entire student population, not just the performance of ESL students from the Vienna Park complex. Something else is - or isn't - apparently taking place at that school that accounts for the low performance, but you don't address what those other factors might be, other than to put it all on the shoulders of the students from one apartment complex. It's hard to tell if you're offering an explanation or instead trying to assign blame.

However, if you truly believe that the quality of Fairfax schools should only be evaluated on some normalized basis that adjusts for socio-economic factors, you should do so consistently. It's less than fair to take that approach when Vienna-area schools are involved, but discard that philosophy when posters ask questions about other communities and make patronizing comments about schools in other areas such as Annandale, Falls Church or Reston where the socio-economics may not be as privileged as Vienna.

[leighland]

Originally Posted by saganista

Then you both work in the private sector and your respective employers are making only Plan-B available to you. All government and most private sector workers (nearly 200K of them in the DC area all told) receive their tax-free transit subsidies above and beyond their regular wages or salaries. You walk up the farecard machine, tap the target, and download the amount of your total monthly fare up to a maximum of $230. That's all there is to it.

Not everyone on this board is moving to the area for a Govt job. I think its irresponsible to post to anyone doing a Metro pass search on this forum "Metro is free" when in all cases its not.

[Alicia Bradley]

I think Vienna Woods would look *much* nicer if people just fixed up the '50s and '60s ranches, had lovely landscaping, etc. These homes - whatever you might think of them, personally - were *designed* to fit on the size lot they're on.

Plopping a cardboard McMansion (with no basement to save a 'mina bit of cash') down on a lot originally intended for a much smaller house is vulgar, IMO, both in terms of the individual property and what it does to the feel of the neighborhood as a whole.

For an example from another region of the country - my parents bought a smallish ranch on Bird Key, Sarasota, FL, and made it gorgeous inside and out - teak floors, incredible landscaping, etc. - and their house looks ten million times better than some of the _Sopranos_-style mafia palaces that have been squeezed onto lots even smaller than my parents' (in the same neighborhood)! (Incidentally, we've noticed that the more.. uh.. tasteful people in the neighborhood tend to live in the renovated ranches.)

[JD984]

Originally Posted by Alicia Bradley

I think Vienna Woods would look *much* nicer if people just fixed up the '50s and '60s ranches, had lovely landscaping, etc. These homes - whatever you might think of them, personally - were *designed* to fit on the size lot they're on.

Plopping a cardboard McMansion (with no basement to save a 'mina bit of cash') down on a lot originally intended for a much smaller house is vulgar, IMO, both in terms of the individual property and what it does to the feel of the neighborhood as a whole.

For an example from another region of the country - my parents bought a smallish ranch on Bird Key, Sarasota, FL, and made it gorgeous inside and out - teak floors, incredible landscaping, etc. - and their house looks ten million times better than some of the _Sopranos_-style mafia palaces that have been squeezed onto lots even smaller than my parents' (in the same neighborhood)! (Incidentally, we've noticed that the more.. uh.. tasteful people in the neighborhood tend to live in the renovated ranches.)

See - that's why I steered you to DelRay - where people ARE fixing up the old bungalows and four squares!

I think people's perceptions of the in-fills in the Town of Vienna depend upon the particular block. The lots aren't necessarily huge (1/4 to 2/3 acre, with most somewhere in-between), but they are generally larger than, say, in Arlington. Once the in-fills reach a critical mass, as is the case on many blocks in SE Vienna, the neighborhood simply takes on a new, and different, appearance than it had before - but still typically pleasant.

At the moment, the Vienna Woods/SW area is a bit more of a jumble, with post-WWII houses from the 1950s (some faded; some well-maintained) near 1960s split-levels and brand new construction (some of which, to my tastes, is awful and some of which is very nice). Your design aesthetic may be laudable but, given a choice, most families today still want more space and amenities than you'll find in a small, post-WW II ranch house built in the 1950s, even with updates. Did your own parents wait until you were out of high school before they moved to the Sarasota house?

The homes in the north part of town and the "faux Vienna" area of the county to the north of the town tend to have larger lots than the areas south of Route 123. Depending on your tastes, this is either a blessing or a curse. The houses tends to be larger, and some would certainly be called McMansions (I think that some of the famous pictures that ScranBarre posted were of developments with Vienna mailing addresses near Route 7 in the "McLean part of Vienna"), but they typically are on larger lots and the juxtaposition between the small and large homes is less jarring.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by JEB77

You should impugn my motives if you wish, although I sense that you are simply not accustomed to being challenged on any assertions that you make relating to Vienna or its neighboring communities.

Your motives are whatever they are. I am merely bewildered at how your noted reflection might have led you to conclude that the difference between 1958 and 1962 should be raised as some significant factor to be weighed in the mind of a potential newcomer. I've meanwhile lived in NoVa for forty years and in the Vienna/Oakton area for more than thirty. My work has gotten me out and about quite a bit in NoVa, in the District, and in parts of Montgomery County. I'm happy to pass on observations gleaned from those experiences that may be useful to those far less familiar with the territory. All that I offer however is no more than my own take from my own vantage point. I would certainly hope that others who are able to do the same would take the time to do so. All I would ask is that they try to stick to the facts and to the idea of actually contributing to the expanded understanding of those who are looking into the area.

Originally Posted by JEB77

I find many of your posts interesting, but at times you pass off your own personal opinions as if they were objective, unassailable facts.

It is an unassailable fact that after Church Street, there is no connection to be made between Lawyers and Beulah Roads until you reach Crowell or Brown's Mill Road. The ease of east-west travel on the north side of Vienna is notably compromised by this fact. It is not a fact that the Vienna Woods of today is at all comparable to the Tyler Park or Broyhill Park of the 1970's. That would be what I would call a quite poorly drawn personal opinion.

Originally Posted by JEB77

Prospective newcomers might find information about aging sections of the Town of Vienna and lower-performing schools at least as relevant as other information that you have previously posted regarding the area for their consideration.

As I and well-informed others have now repeatedly sought to point out, the concept of "lower-performing" is all but meaningless when presented as it is on sites such as greatschools.com. It is unfortunate that many will prefer to be misinformed by a convenient website than to be informed by going to the trouble of actually looking into a particular selection of schools. Those following the latter course might for instance have learned that that various Oakton ES/Thoreau MS neighborhoods touted earlier in the thread are five to six miles and perhaps a 25-minute trip from Thoreau, while many kids in Cunningham Park ES/Thoreau MS neighborhoods can simply walk to and from Thoreau. That information might have been seen as relevant by newcomers, but it wasn't previously offered to them.

Meanwhile, all of Vienna is aging, and the effect is not limited to Vienna. To put this again into some context, as Vienna expanded after WWII from what began as little more than a village, it did so first to the south and later to the north. As was noted very early on, this has meant that both housing prices and household incomes have typically been somewhat higher on the north side of town. It is the case, however, that both sides of town have ample populations that are drawn from upper and upper-middle income brackets. The south side would likely have more significant numbers who fall into middle income brackets. To suggest, as too many northsiders are wont to do, that this somehow marks the south side of town as an area in neglect and decline and about to tumble into what would pass in this area for slumhood is, to put it simply, inaccurate and seriously misleading.

Originally Posted by JEB77

If you are simply saying that the construction of the older homes in Vienna Woods was not completed until the 1960s, I'd agree. However, if one looks at homes in Vienna Woods that are currently for sale, you will see that the bulk of the older homes were constructed in the 1950s, not the 1960s, and some are in considerably better condition than others.

I am again bewildered by your seeming obsession with the phrase "a large development built out during the 1960's". I certainly have no objection if you would insist upon seeing it stated as "during the late 1950's and 1960's". But the new version of the phrase will convey no meaningful information that was not already conveyed by the old one.

Some houses are meanwhile in better condition than others in every neighborhood. I would surmise that this very state would in fact be the clear expectation of every potential home-buyer everywhere. I again wonder what purpose lies behind the statement other than to suggest that there is increasingly some ramshackle collection of dilapidated and deteriorating homes blighting the environment of Vienna Woods. There is no such thing. There are some 700 homes in established Vienna Woods, and perhaps three times that number in what is popularly referred to as Vienna Woods. Approximately none of them is in any actual state of disrepair. The clear majority would be in excellent condition, and the clear majority of the remainder would be in no worse than very good condition. Of course, if you had actually meant "considerably better" to refer to the difference between very good and excellent, you would have had a valid point.

Originally Posted by JEB77

I could see the area improving, if the economy picked up and the trend toward in-fills resumed or, alternatively, taking on more of the current attributes of neighborhoods such as Tyler or Broyhill Park over time. Many of the older houses are fairly similar in scale and appearance.

In what ways would it improve? In what ways would it need to? Having used Kingsley Road in east-to-west travel through Vienna Woods just yesterday, I can recall seeing perhaps a half dozen For Sale signs, likely none of them in front of a home that would list for less than a million dollars. Otherwise, I was impressed as always by the stately, mature trees, the well-manicured lawns, the diverse architecture, and the interesting landscaping. Perhaps this area is not quite Walnut Hill, but it is much, much closer to it than it is to Tyler Park, and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that it will not continue to be so over the indefinite future.

Originally Posted by JEB77

In response to your hypothesis, I would expect to see the Westbriar test scores decline, just not to the current level of Cunningham Park. The current scores at Cunningham Park reflect the performance of the entire student population, not just the performance of ESL students from the Vienna Park complex. Something else is - or isn't - apparently taking place at that school that accounts for the low performance, but you don't address what those other factors might be, other than to put it all on the shoulders of the students from one apartment complex.

And these Mystery Factors that would somehow keep Westbriar's scores from tumbling to the current level of CPES are??? Can you hazard any guess at all, or are you simply being dismissive here? All of Vienna's elementary schools are run by FCPS. Same administration, same curricula, same staffing and financing pools. The grounds and physcial plant at CPES are as good as if not better than those at Westbriar. Perhaps rather than merely alluding to its alleged existence, you could actually specify what sort of magic it is that Westbriar possesses and Cunningham Park does not. I'm sure that all of us, newcomers or not, would find that to be relevant information.

Originally Posted by JEB77

However, if you truly believe that the quality of Fairfax schools should only be evaluated on some normalized basis that adjusts for socio-economic factors, you should do so consistently. It's less than fair to take that approach when Vienna-area schools are involved, but discard that philosophy when posters ask questions about other communities and make patronizing comments about schools in other areas such as Annandale, Falls Church or Reston where the socio-economics may not be as privileged as Vienna.

You're evading the point. Which is that your reliance on mere test-score based data does not provide you with an accurate assessment of actual school quality or performance. You are left with a mere statistic and no adequate means for interpreting it. If that's all you want, then you have all you need. For those who are perhaps more cognizant of the difference between a start-point and an end-point, more information and a more careful analysis will be necessary. I meanwhile don't recall making any disparaging remarks about schools in Annandale, Falls Church, or Reston, and I would certainly recommend that the same principles be applied in assessing any of them as ought to be -- but aren't always -- followed with respect to schools in and around Vienna.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by leighland

Not everyone on this board is moving to the area for a Govt job. I think its irresponsible to post to anyone doing a Metro pass search on this forum "Metro is free" when in all cases its not.

As I wrote it, and as you quoted it, the statement in question was...

Originally Posted by saganista
The Vienna-to-DC commute itself meanwhile becomes less typical every day, but most who do it would likely be well advised to use Metro, since it is essentially free for most.

It is unfortunate in at least some regard that you are a part of the group that defines the difference between "most" and "all". I do not share your concern that those doing a Metro pass search on this forum will be blind to that difference in any signficant number.

[JD984]

Originally Posted by saganista

Your motives are whatever they are. I am merely bewildered at how your noted reflection might have led you to conclude that the difference between 1958 and 1962 should be raised as some significant factor to be weighed in the mind of a potential newcomer. I've meanwhile lived in NoVa for forty years and in the Vienna/Oakton area for more than thirty. My work has gotten me out and about quite a bit in NoVa, in the District, and in parts of Montgomery County. I'm happy to pass on observations gleaned from those experiences that may be useful to those far less familiar with the territory. All that I offer however is no more than my own take from my own vantage point. I would certainly hope that others who are able to do the same would take the time to do so. All I would ask is that they try to stick to the facts and to the idea of actually contributing to the expanded understanding of those who are looking into the area.

Someone - not me - recently revived a thread where you took another poster to task for mischaracterizing as a "strip mall" a typical suburban shopping area that you technically did not consider to be a "strip mall," so please don't complain when others point out what seem to be factually misleading assertions in your posts. People - particularly those who are not in the area and can't visit the neighborhoods you praise first-hand -likely will have a different impression of a neighborhood if you suggest, as I think you did, that the houses were largely built in the 1960s, when many of the houses were built in the 1950s, at a time when homes were typically smaller.

I haven't lived in NoVa for over 40 years, but I've lived in NoVa at different times over a longer span of time, apparently, than you have. So I also feel qualified to offer observations and comparisons of neighborhods. In looking at other threads, I see that you often complain that other posters are making things personal, or aren't contributing to a discussion, when all they do is offer observations that differ from your own.

Originally Posted by saganista

It is an unassailable fact that after Church Street, there is no connection to be made between Lawyers and Beulah Roads until you reach Crowell or Brown's Mill Road. The ease of east-west travel on the north side of Vienna is notably compromised by this fact. It is not a fact that the Vienna Woods of today is at all comparable to the Tyler Park or Broyhill Park of the 1970's. That would be what I would call a quite poorly drawn personal opinion.

The fact that east-west travel in the north side of the Town of Vienna is more difficult than east-west travel in the south side of the Town of Vienna is indeed unassailable. The suggestion that it really matters very much or "notably compromises" east-west travel to the places beyond the Town of Vienna to which most folks actually commute is utterly silly - as are your frequent suggestions that people who don't live in the Town of Vienna but have Vienna mailing addresses live in a "faux Vienna."

I will point out - which you did not - that some of the barriers that supposedly make east-west travel in the north side of the town of Vienna or the county neighborhoods to the north such an ordeal result in a higher number of cul-de-sacs in these neighborhoods. Urban planners may not like cul-de-sacs, but many families certainly do, just as many families wish to avoid streets that attract a lot of vehicular traffic.

Whether you consider a well-formed opinion or not, I think sections of Vienna Woods very much resemble portions of Broyhill Park, in particular, in the late 70s and early 80s. Some of the 1950s houses in Broyhill Park were starting to age and were not well-maintained, and the demographics were starting gradually to change to a less affluent and well-educated population than was found in surrounding neighborhoods. That's what appears, at least in part, to be contributing now to lower scores at Marshall Road and Cunningham Park, and that's why a number of posters have recently suggested that potential residents look at neighborhoods not zoned to those schools. I have not been one of those posters, and you will not find a single post where I've recommended against sending a child to either of these schools. Your increasingly defensive responses, however, do reinforce a sense, shared by many, that there is an attitude among some Town residents (a view that those who live in the Town and the schools attended by Town residents are, by definition, "excellent" and that denial is preferable to facing up to potential challenges) that gives one pause. While you may attribute the lower scores simply to special education students at Marshall Road or ESL students from the Vienna Park apartments at Cunningham Park, and praise others in the area who do likewise, that's not an entirely plausible explanation, as I suspect you know but do not wish to acknowledge.

Originally Posted by saganista

As I and well-informed others have now repeatedly sought to point out, the concept of "lower-performing" is all but meaningless when presented as it is on sites such as greatschools.com. It is unfortunate that many will prefer to be misinformed by a convenient website than to be informed by going to the trouble of actually looking into a particular selection of schools. Those following the latter course might for instance have learned that that various Oakton ES/Thoreau MS neighborhoods touted earlier in the thread are five to six miles and perhaps a 25-minute trip from Thoreau, while many kids in Cunningham Park ES/Thoreau MS neighborhoods can simply walk to and from Thoreau. That information might have been seen as relevant by newcomers, but it wasn't previously offered to them.

I actually was not aware until recently that you find the information provided by Greatschools to be misleading, and would welcome a more detailed explanation as to why you consider that to be the case. I personally don't find it misleading, although I would agree that it shouldn't be the sole basis for assessing a school. But, then again, I wouldn't trust your opinions as a sole basis for assessing a school, either.

I don't understand your point about the walking times to and from Thoreau. If you think that's relevant information, you should certainly share it. It might make a house in the Cunningham Park/Thoreau area more attractive for some, since it's a short and convenient walk to Thoreau, and less attractive to others, since it's a walk through the Vienna Park area that's a bit chaotic in the morning.

Originally Posted by saganista

Meanwhile, all of Vienna is aging, and the effect is not limited to Vienna. To put this again into some context, as Vienna expanded after WWII from what began as little more than a village, it did so first to the south and later to the north. As was noted very early on, this has meant that both housing prices and household incomes have typically been somewhat higher on the north side of town. It is the case, however, that both sides of town have ample populations that are drawn from upper and upper-middle income brackets. The south side would likely have more significant numbers who fall into middle income brackets. To suggest, as too many northsiders are wont to do, that this somehow marks the south side of town as an area in neglect and decline and about to tumble into what would pass in this area for slumhood is, to put it simply, inaccurate and seriously misleading.

Your rhetoric is seriously over-the-top here. If you look at my prior posts, I didn't suggest anything of the kind, nor did I suggest that the Falls Church neighborhoods that Vienna Woods may come to resemble are slums. I think you are revealing your own biases by using this type of language. If anything, all that I and some other posters have done is pointed out that Vienna Woods is an older neighborhood, the demographics may be changing, and that these factors - along with other factors - may be adversely affecting the school performance in the local schools, compared to other schools in the Vienna area (both in the Town of Vienna or in county neighborhoods with Vienna addresses). It's a fairly straight-forward observation that appears to be consistent with the data.

Originally Posted by saganista

Having used Kingsley Road in east-to-west travel through Vienna Woods just yesterday, I can recall seeing perhaps a half dozen For Sale signs, likely none of them in front of a home that would list for less than a million dollars. Otherwise, I was impressed as always by the stately, mature trees, the well-manicured lawns, the diverse architecture, and the interesting landscaping. Perhaps this area is not quite Walnut Hill, but it is much, much closer to it than it is to Tyler Park, and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that it will not continue to be so over the indefinite future.

Yes - several of the mega-buck Ayr Hill homes on Kingsley have been for sale for a very, very long time. This is the flip side of your touting of the ease of commuting on the south side of the Town of Vienna - people apparently are reluctant to buy expensive homes on streets like Kingsley and Tapawingo that get so much vehicular traffic.

Many parts of the Town of Vienna are extremely pretty and have all the attributes you describe. Others do not. Again, apart from the diversity of the architecture, the same could have been said for Broyhill Park in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Originally Posted by saganista

I meanwhile don't recall making any disparaging remarks about schools in Annandale, Falls Church, or Reston, and I would certainly recommend that the same principles be applied in assessing any of them as ought to be -- but aren't always -- followed with respect to schools in and around Vienna.

You should go back and read your prior posts (there are thousands and thousands of them) a bit more carefully. I look forward to your consistently applying the principles that you have now articulated when making observations about other schools and communities in the future.