Results of Reston Land Use College: Session One (Arlington, Franconia: coupons, apartment complexes)

[540_804]

Originally Posted by leighland

I truly despise how these 'urban planners' lump 'affordable housing' as one size fits all. A family of 4 who needs "affordable housing" and goes to bed at 10 pm and have kids who wake up in the middle of the night sick don't want to share 'affordable housing' with 4 20 year olds who stay up all hours and throw parties once a month. These planners will not reserve various types of self governed affordable areas because it takes away from the tax base. Plus you wont see affordable housing in lets say North Arlington, where the best public schools are in Arlington. I think planners just want their own vision and insist everyone comply or else.

I don't think you could place the blame for that squarely on urban planners...I would more blame the developers if anybody at all. Urban planners may mandate that for X-amount of market value units in a development, the developer must also include Y-amount of 'affordable' units but the planner will rarely (or never) dictate the exact layout of these units. Developers primarily operate on what brings the most profit (as any successful business would, so im not blaming them). That being said, they will often clump all affordable units together in a location that will do the least amount of 'damage' (in profitability) to the other units, often meaning these units will be in the least desirable area of the overall development. In a high rise, the affordable units are naturally on the lower floors. In another type of development they may be the units placed furthest away from the award-winning golf course or the units facing a major roadway that would be less desirable...

You have to give urban planners some credit; without them there would be a lot less affordable housings as its typically not as profitable to a developer.

[normie]

I like the idea of smart housing... in theory. I'm glad to see it taking off in a few places like Reston. But as an investor I've been burnt by it, and I won't be putting money my money into them again. I think you'll discover getting people intrigued about ideas is one thing, but getting financing for these projects is a much bigger hurdle.

The problem is selling the smart housing units once they're built. Frankly, people don't seem to buy them. Reality with Lansdowne was that buyers went for the outlying SFH's with yards. The townhomes that were built as part of the shopping/community center were very difficult to sell.

[normie]

Originally Posted by 540_804

You have to give urban planners some credit; without them there would be a lot less affordable housings as its typically not as profitable to a developer.

Well.... I'm not sure creating lots of affordable housing is something to brag about. Affordable housing has it's good and bad points. I used to promote it when I was young and idealistic (and broke). But the older I get, the less I want "affordable housing" mixed in with my neighborhood. What happened in Reston is a classic example of why.

Back in the 60s, Reston used to brag about how they added quite a bit of Section 8 housing as part of it's urban planning. They don't brag about this anymore, it ended up causing a lot of problems. And they also found out the hard way that once a neighborhood has problems, it's hard to undo it.

Or consider Sterling Park, aka the affordable housing in Loudoun. Personally, I like Sterling Park--it's got winding streets, lots of trees, cute Brady Bunch houses with big front yards. The urban planners made it as cute as they could. But that doesn't change the fact that affordable housing attracts less than appealing residents. To be honest, I recommend people think twice before buying into this neighborhood even if it is inexpensive. Why? Because if you buy a house there you'll have a hard time selling it when you want to move. And you'll have to deal with petty crime.

Even the people who promote urban living and talk about the necessity of affordable housing don't actually like being in those neighborhoods. Check out this reaction:

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

...perhaps I just caught the town at a bad time but I did NOT like the atmosphere of the Sterling Boulevard corridor, especially next to the DMV, very much at all. I hate to sound like a racist, but if I see a group of minority males walking down the sidewalk with bandanas on and staring at passing vehicles I immediately worry about the possibility of them being a "gang." Couple that with the unkempt median grass, the distressed-looking townhomes/apartments, and the single-family homes that seemed just a bit spooky and I really could stand to avoid photographing that neighborhood.

Think about it--this is a reaction from a 22-year-old single guy who works out every day and who talks about wanting to be in urban neighborhoods. If even a physically strong male is uncomfortable in an affordable housing neighborhood, what makes you think anyone else would be thrilled when urban planners talk about how much affordable housing they're going to create?

Just some food for thought.

[fdeitz]

Regarding affordable housing and Normie's comments - indeed, just take a look at parts of Prince William County where there is a lot of affordable housing. Many of those parts don't have a good reputation and most people would not feel safe walking alone in those parts after dark. Affordable housing sounds good on paper, but as Normie pointed out - it tends to become areas where there is more crime, and the houses become harder to sell in future years.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that the Northern Virginia area has very high housing costs. Those pockets of the area where affordable housing are built - may be nice at first as they are new, but in time seem to tend to become the not so nice areas.

[JD984]

Originally Posted by normie

Reston used to brag about how they added quite a bit of Section 8 housing as part of it's urban planning. They don't brag about this anymore, it ended up causing a lot of problems.

Scran-Barre needs to get one of the "elderly" residents whom he said moved to Reston in the 1970s (did I just say "ouch") to start posting on City-Data to address this. I have the impression is that what happened in Reston was that the initial development plans contemplated a certain amount of "affordable housing" in the area, and then Fairfax County officials then started to view Reston (together with the Alexandria portion of Fairfax County) as an area where they could place even more Section 8 housing, without the local residents raising as many objections as might occur in, say, Great Falls. So people in Reston might well say that they were punished for their good intentions, and others might say the Restonians lacked the courage of their own convictions.

Originally Posted by normie

Think about it--this is a reaction from a 22-year-old single guy who works out every day and who talks about wanting to be in urban neighborhoods. If even a physically strong male is uncomfortable in an afforable housing neighborhood, what makes you think anyone else wants a neighborhood like that near them? Is it any wonder people aren't that thrilled when urban planners talk about how much affordable housing they're going to create?

Bingo - "affordable housing" does not simply mean cheaper loft-style apartments for college graduates. I do think, though, that Scran-Barre is perhaps still getting acclimated to the diversity of the region and that he'll be more blase about this in a few months. Either that, or deny himself the pleasures of a good "Slurpee" or "Big Gulp."

[leighland]

Originally Posted by 540_804

I don't think you could place the blame for that squarely on urban planners...I would more blame the developers if anybody at all. Urban planners may mandate that for X-amount of market value units in a development, the developer must also include Y-amount of 'affordable' units but the planner will rarely (or never) dictate the exact layout of these units. Developers primarily operate on what brings the most profit (as any successful business would, so im not blaming them). That being said, they will often clump all affordable units together in a location that will do the least amount of 'damage' (in profitability) to the other units, often meaning these units will be in the least desirable area of the overall development. In a high rise, the affordable units are naturally on the lower floors. In another type of development they may be the units placed furthest away from the award-winning golf course or the units facing a major roadway that would be less desirable...

You have to give urban planners some credit; without them there would be a lot less affordable housings as its typically not as profitable to a developer.

The only reason any affordable housing is added is because Zoning Laws, which differ from town to town etc., require it. Now you could make an argument about how many of the various city/county councils are up to their necks in kahoots with various developers. This does not mean I think ACORN should be legislating all housing either tho'.

[lchoro]

He needs to hang out at Lake Anne more often. There are a lot of Hispanic males hanging out by the convenience store. They don't seem in the least bit threatening or unfriendly. The composition of the residents at the Cameron Crescent complex across the street seems to be predominantly Hispanic and minority. The county bought the complex several years ago and plans to rebuild it as a much larger rent-subsidized complex. By the way, the ParcReston complex where he lives has at least 10 county-owned units that are rent-subsidized for low-income households paying $600 to $700 a month.

[normie]

Originally Posted by lchoro

By the way, the ParcReston complex where he lives has at least 10 county-owned units that are rent-subsidized for low-income households paying $600 to $700 a month.

Thanks for mentioning this. IMO, rent subsidies are a better way to create affordable housing rather than creating cheap places as part of urban design. I think the people who get these subsidies like it better, too.

[pcity]

Originally Posted by leighland

I truly despise how these 'urban planners' lump 'affordable housing' as one size fits all. A family of 4 who needs "affordable housing" and goes to bed at 10 pm and have kids who wake up in the middle of the night sick don't want to share 'affordable housing' with 4 20 year olds who stay up all hours and throw parties once a month. These planners will not reserve various types of self governed affordable areas because it takes away from the tax base. Plus you wont see affordable housing in lets say North Arlington, where the best public schools are in Arlington. I think planners just want their own vision and insist everyone comply or else.

I tend to agree that "affordable housing" is kind of a sham.

Arlington, Alexandria, and Fairfax justify the need for affordable housing because teachers, firefighters, and policemen can't afford to live in these expensive counties. So the counties go out and buy up apartments so these civil servants can live within the county and not have to commute from Prince William. But wouldn't it make more sense to just pay them more? I mean, with all the money we're spending on affordable housing, why not just give that money to the teachers, policemen, and firefighters directly in the form of increased salaries? I think affordable housing programs are the least efficient way to do what the counties are trying to do.

[normie]

Originally Posted by pcity

I tend to agree that "affordable housing" is kind of a sham.

Arlington, Alexandria, and Fairfax justify the need for affordable housing because teachers, firefighters, and policemen can't afford to live in these expensive counties. So the counties go out and buy up apartments so these civil servants can live within the county and not have to commute from Prince William. But wouldn't it make more sense to just pay them more? I mean, with all the money we're spending on affordable housing, why not just give that money to the teachers, policemen, and firefighters directly in the form of increased salaries? I think affordable housing programs are the least efficient way to do what the counties are trying to do.

You're absolutely right! I totally agree.