Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"American’s don’t consider it worthwhile to complete advanced science and engineering degrees because it doesn’t make financial sense for them to do so. Research by Harvard economist Richard Freeman showed that because salaries for scientists and engineers are lower than for other professions, the investment that students have to make in higher degrees isn’t cost-justified. Doctoral graduate students typically spend seven to eight years earning a PhD, during which time they are paid stipends. These stipends are usually less than what a bachelor’s degree-holder makes. Some students never make up for this financial loss. Foreign students typically have fewer opportunities and see a U.S. education as their ticket to the U.S. job market and citizenship. Hence, 60% of U.S. engineering PhD graduates are foreigners." -- Vivek Wadhwa
Obviously Craig Barrett, the representative for the corporate CEOs, argued differently from the perspective of meeting the corporate's bottom line. Craig Barrett probably made 100 times or more of what a top engineer in Intel makes. And this is excluding the thousands of engineers they employee in their R&D centers in China and India.
"American’s don’t consider it worthwhile to complete advanced science and engineering degrees because it doesn’t make financial sense for them to do so. Research by Harvard economist Richard Freeman showed that because salaries for scientists and engineers are lower than for other professions, the investment that students have to make in higher degrees isn’t cost-justified. Doctoral graduate students typically spend seven to eight years earning a PhD, during which time they are paid stipends. These stipends are usually less than what a bachelor’s degree-holder makes. Some students never make up for this financial loss. Foreign students typically have fewer opportunities and see a U.S. education as their ticket to the U.S. job market and citizenship. Hence, 60% of U.S. engineering PhD graduates are foreigners." -- Vivek Wadhwa
Obviously Craig Barrett, the representative for the corporate CEOs, argued differently from the perspective of meeting the corporate's bottom line. Craig Barrett probably made 100 times or more of what a top engineer in Intel makes. And this is excluding the thousands of engineers they employee in their R&D centers in China and India.
A few flaws in this logic - one, it assumes that everyone is driven 100% by maximizing their financial earning potential.
two, not everyone can be the CEO. Just in your example, you state there are thousands of engineers per each CEO.
I found a comparison of TJ's original and revised "mission" statements to be interesting. The original "mission statement" focused on how the existence of a magnet school might benefit the broader region. The current statement seems to focus on creating a fun learning environment for TJ students. I would expect that there may be some pressure put on TJHSST to move back towards its prior "mission statement," which more clearly seems to align with the reasons originally articulated by the Fairfax County business leaders who lobbied in the 1980s to create a math/science magnet school.
Prior Mission Statement:
Working with the belief that science/technology is a process or a way of thinking and acting that blends human functions and needs with knowledge, tool use, and skills, our school has a four-fold mission:
Offering programs that promote enthusiasm, exploration, and academic excellence in an evolving economic and scientific/technological community.
Serving as a laboratory school examining and developing new methods and materials in curriculum innovation/reform.
Fostering a broad exchange of ideas and programming through outreach in teacher training, enrichment for students K-12. and networking.
Serving as a model for private sector/public education partnerships.
In accordance with our mission, TJHSST continues to sponsor outreach activities to communities both near and far. Some examples include the following:
Guests are welcome to visit Jefferson, and are provided with an overview of the history and philosophy of the school, and are taken on a tour of the building by students or staff. Further information is available at our visitors page.
With the support of the Boeing Company, Jefferson will continue to assist with the annual Fairfax County Fair.
Students and staff at Jefferson intend to assist small businesses in Fairfax County as well as many non-profit organizations in Northern Virginia build web pages as part of Get on the Web Day.
Staff from Jefferson and other FCPS personnel will continue to provide network seminars such as the annual JOSTI conference held every summer at TJHSST.
Current Mission Statement
Mission Statement
The mission of Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is to provide students a challenging learning environment focused on math, science, and technology, to inspire joy at the prospect of discovery, and to foster a culture of innovation based on ethical behavior and the shared interests of humanity.
Beliefs
At Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, we believe:
Critical thinking and problem solving skills are vital in addressing the complex societal and ethical issues of our time.
Students learn best in a community where academic disciplines are integrated, fostering an appreciation of how they interact and form a whole.
Global interdependence compels us to understand the languages, systems and diverse cultures of people throughout the world.
Literature, music and the arts are essential, timeless aspects of human existence.
The methods of science provide discipline to our search for structure in the world.
Research stems from a combination of fundamental knowledge, individual creativity and curiosity.
Effective communication is often the only difference between a good idea and a successful initiative.
Collaborative learning, athletics, and extracurricular activities develop leadership and interpersonal skills.
Responsibility and integrity are core principles in the pursuit of excellence.
Learning never ends.
But according to an earlier post the science and maths are not the best paying subjects - the best pay is in the real-estate brokerage!
I don't know where the earlier poster got his information, but according to the National Association of Realtors average income in 2008 for a Broker or Associate Broker was about $50,000 and for an agent $28,000, hardly the best paying occupation in the U.S. The big brokerages do well, but that is the company, not the individual sales person.
I am a current senior at TJ and found this thread to be a little bit alarming, amusing, and interesting at the same time.
I think I speak for a lot of my peers at TJ and agree that there is a rather skewed population of rich asian and white students and that TJ is in need of some more hispanic and black students. This does not mean, however, that it is a good idea to to change admissions in order to choose those that are less qualified over those who are more qualified.
Furthermore, my classmates have noticed this substantial demographic shift where the school was >50% white (during my freshman/sophomore years) to now where it is >50% asian. Most students are (of all races) fine with this and even tend joke lightheartedly on it. The average TJ student wants to be in an environment where they are surrounded by classmates that are as thoughtful and motivated as they are.
This shift has not affected the sports teams at TJ to any measurable extent as students in general are highly motivated and participated in high rates in sports and the arts. From what I have seen, there will always be talented athletes at TJ to fuel the athletic program regardless of whether or not there will be a so called "white flight" which is ludicrous in my opinion.
I would also say that a large portion of students at TJ love the humanities as much as they enjoy math and science. Sadly, the humanities/arts program is declining at TJ, not because of the students, but rather due to the policies of the administration who are gearing the school towards math and science.
Essentially
1) I think it is imperative for TJ to keep admitting students that are well qualified.
2) Race should never be a factor in admission to TJ
3) This thread should shift focus from the declining white population/rising asian population at TJ to the ridiculously low numbers of Hispanic and Black students at TJ. This speaks volumes about how poorly the schools that generally educate these minorities, are teaching and motivating their students. If this problem could be better addressed by FCPS at the MS and ES levels, I'm sure there be more higher performing African Americans and Hispanics applying to TJ and getting admitted.
This speaks volumes about how poorly the schools that generally educate these minorities, are teaching and motivating their students. If this problem could be better addressed by FCPS at the MS and ES levels, I'm sure there be more higher performing African Americans and Hispanics applying to TJ and getting admitted.
Excellent point -- as is the rest of what you wrote. Thank you.
I am a current senior at TJ and found this thread to be a little bit alarming, amusing, and interesting at the same time.
I think I speak for a lot of my peers at TJ and agree that there is a rather skewed population of rich asian and white students and that TJ is in need of some more hispanic and black students. This does not mean, however, that it is a good idea to to change admissions in order to choose those that are less qualified over those who are more qualified.
Furthermore, my classmates have noticed this substantial demographic shift where the school was >50% white (during my freshman/sophomore years) to now where it is >50% asian. Most students are (of all races) fine with this and even tend joke lightheartedly on it. The average TJ student wants to be in an environment where they are surrounded by classmates that are as thoughtful and motivated as they are.
This shift has not affected the sports teams at TJ to any measurable extent as students in general are highly motivated and participated in high rates in sports and the arts. From what I have seen, there will always be talented athletes at TJ to fuel the athletic program regardless of whether or not there will be a so called "white flight" which is ludicrous in my opinion.
I would also say that a large portion of students at TJ love the humanities as much as they enjoy math and science. Sadly, the humanities/arts program is declining at TJ, not because of the students, but rather due to the policies of the administration who are gearing the school towards math and science.
Essentially
1) I think it is imperative for TJ to keep admitting students that are well qualified.
2) Race should never be a factor in admission to TJ
3) This thread should shift focus from the declining white population/rising asian population at TJ to the ridiculously low numbers of Hispanic and Black students at TJ. This speaks volumes about how poorly the schools that generally educate these minorities, are teaching and motivating their students. If this problem could be better addressed by FCPS at the MS and ES levels, I'm sure there be more higher performing African Americans and Hispanics applying to TJ and getting admitted.
Great post; wonderful to have an insider's perspective.
Several points to consider:
1. Whether you consider it ludicrous or not, the county's data shows that, during a period in which the population in Fairfax County (not to mention neighboring jurisdictions such as Arlington and Loudoun) continued to increase, the number of white students both applying and gaining admission to TJ declined substantially. There may not be anything close to "white flight," since plenty of white students were still vying for more slots at TJ than were available, but there's evidence that fewer white students consider themselves viable TJ candidates than was the case in the past. To me, that raises questions that are indeed newsworthy. One question is whether county and state leaders who have previously supported admitting students to TJ based purely on merit have the "courage of their convictions." If they do, they will be indifferent to the school's changing demographics for all the reasons you mention. Another question is whether the declining number of white applicants to a magnet school ought to cause some amount of soul-searching among white parents. Many whites do not hesitate very long to point out what they perceive to be aspects of "Black Culture" or "Hispanic Culture" that lead to lower levels of educational achievement. However, if white students are under-represented at a magnet school such as TJ, perhaps that ought to cause those persons to consider what aspects of contemporary "White Culture" result in fewer white students applying or gaining acceptance to TJ.
2. TJ was created in the mid-1980s for the specific reason that the local business community wanted Fairfax County to take a lead, high-profile role in responding to national concerns that math and science education in American high schools was lagging behind standards in other countries. The stated purpose was not to create a generic high school for gifted students who liked humanities as much as, if not more than, math and science. That being the case, why shouldn't the administration emphasize the school's math and science focus?
3. Do you really think that it is the fault of local elementary and middle schools that more Black and Hispanic students are not applying to and gaining admission to TJ in larger numbers? If so, what should they be doing differently? It's very easy (and convenient) to blame the schools, but Denton56 and others have noted that the county already has special programs that are ostensibly designed to increase the number of Black and Hispanic students admitted to TJ. To date, the intentions appear to have been far better than the results.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,701 posts, read 41,813,040 times
Reputation: 41403
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkid2010
3) This thread should shift focus from the declining white population/rising asian population at TJ to the ridiculously low numbers of Hispanic and Black students at TJ. This speaks volumes about how poorly the schools that generally educate these minorities, are teaching and motivating their students. If this problem could be better addressed by FCPS at the MS and ES levels, I'm sure there be more higher performing African Americans and Hispanics applying to TJ and getting admitted.
As a Black man, I think there is a problem that is more on the students and parents that leads to very low Black/Hispanic numbers at TJ. That problem is motivation and parental involvement.
As a group, engineers earn some of the highest average starting salaries among those holding bachelor's degrees. Average starting salary offers for graduates of bachelor’s degree programs in engineering, according to a July 2009 survey by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, were as follows:
Petroleum $83,121 Chemical 64,902 Mining and Mineral 64,404 Computer 61,738 Nuclear 61,610 Electrical/electronics and communications 60,125 Mechanical 58,766 Industrial/manufacturing 58,358 Materials 57,349 Aerospace/aeronautical/astronautical 56,311 Agricultural 54,352 Bioengineering and biomedical 54,158 Civil 52,048
Thank you for the link.
The top 4 highest number of employment for engineering specialty are electrical engineers, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, and industrial engineers.
Table 1. Earnings distribution by engineering specialty, May 2008
If you look at the median salary, it is well under 100K. I have no doubt you know "engineers" that make well over 125K just 5 years out of school, but they are the exceptions. Most likely they have SCI/Poly clearances that command those salaries, not because of their engineering skills.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
