hawaii 81% food independent ? (2013, to buy, live)

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by KauaiHiker

I think you really underestimate the tourist (PT Barnum not withstanding).

Nope, I think I understand them better than you. A very small subgroup might go for what you are suggesting, but most wouldn't. Sorry, but people are fussy and picky and demanding about their food... as anyone who has ever worked in food service can tell you.

I'm sorry you didn't read my previous post, because I already answered everything you brought up. Probably 2/3 or more of the food items presently sold and used in restaurants in Hawai'i have no local source, and maybe 1/3 don't even have reasonable local substitutes.

If you've got no wheat, no flour, no bread, no buns, no pastries, no pasta, no pizza, no rice, no noodles, no grains, no soy, no miso... right there you've probably put off nearly every tourist headed this way. And you really don't want to annoy nearly every tourist coming this way. You could crash the local economy. Most people want to feel some sense of luxury on vacation, and for most being forced into eating a reduced range of somewhat unfamiliar foods is going to be a deal breaker. Sorry, that's just how people are for the most part.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by OpenD

If you've got no wheat, no flour, no bread, no buns, no pastries, no pasta, no pizza, no rice, no noodles, no grains, no soy, no miso... right there you've probably put off nearly every tourist headed this way. And you really don't want to annoy nearly every tourist coming this way. You could crash the local economy. Most people want to feel some sense of luxury on vacation, and for most being forced into eating a reduced range of somewhat unfamiliar foods is going to be a deal breaker. Sorry, that's just how people are for the most part.

This isn't just tourist - people who live here want wheat, flour, bread, pastries, pasta, pizza, rice, noodles, grains, etc, etc, etc.....This isn't a healthy eating place - forget Waikiki, I can't think of any "health only local places" that succeed in Hawaii. And can we get a decent Mexican place here already!

Just have to head to the Maui thread of the "Best <fill in the blank> where blank isn't local.

[KauaiHiker]

Hey, at least I got OpenD and whtviper1 to agree on something.

I understand what you're both saying, and that is the current state of affairs, but I'm looking to the future. Things could change over 20 years, and changing back to diversified ag will do more to preserve what I appreciate in Hawaii than anything else. 20 years ago, visitors were eating steak and potatoes, prime rib and dinner rolls. Now, most tourist restaurants on Kauai are some form of Pacific fusion cuisine--Mac nut crusted ahi on rice with green bean tempura, so most of the Asian ingredients could be local.

As far as money goes, let's assume that some food costs x to purchase and ship to Hawaii--that's the wholesaler's cost. The wholesaler sells it to the restaurant for 1.5x, and the restaurant makes another 0.5x on it. Cost to the consumer is 2x, with 1x staying in the local economy (I'm counting Matson as outside the economy, though they I suppose they do provide some local jobs and taxes). Buy local food for exactly the same prices (assume that's possible tight now) and 2x stays in the local economy. See, I've just doubled the local economy (folks, this is how colonies use to work: sell finished products to them to extract money from them).

I also know that local residents' diets and the cost of food are huge issues, but the idea is to do like solar electricity: subsidize the desired goal so it can compete at the start, and once the industry is established and mature, it's costs come down and it can compete on cost alone. That's when the locals can eat locally raised junk food.

Without a push for Ag, neighbor islands are going to start changing a lot faster as development takes over--and the change will be much more drastic. Whtviper1 keeps talking about Waikiki, and yes, it is tourist central, but Waikiki no longer has anything to lose--even it's beach is going away and has to be made artificially.

PS, come to Kauai for Mexican, we got plenty Taquerias now and taco trucks too.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by KauaiHiker

As far as money goes, let's assume that some food costs x to purchase and ship to Hawaii--that's the wholesaler's cost. The wholesaler sells it to the restaurant for 1.5x, and the restaurant makes another 0.5x on it. Cost to the consumer is 2x, with 1x staying in the local economy

This will probably surprise you, because it surprises many people, but restaurants typically mark their food costs up 3X - 3.5X to arrive at their menu prices. That's why they are very sensitive to food cost increases, because of the large multiplier in their markup. So doubling their costs is a non-starter.

That Mac nut crusted ahi on rice with green bean tempura, so most of the Asian ingredients could be local.

The cost of ingredients on that plate could be cheaper than a steak and potato, to be honest. The ahi slice is the only expensive ingredient. Rice is cheap... but not local, and probably will never be again... and green beans are cheap. If you look carefully, a lot of the "fusion" dishes are like that... one main ingredient, with lots of cheap ingredients around it, using a lot of craftsmanship to disguise the fact that you don't get as much food as the old standards.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by KauaiHiker

I understand what you're both saying, and that is the current state of affairs, but I'm looking to the future. Things could change over 20 years, and changing back to diversified ag will do more to preserve what I appreciate in Hawaii than anything else. 20 years ago, visitors were eating steak and potatoes, prime rib and dinner rolls. Now, most tourist restaurants on Kauai are some form of Pacific fusion cuisine--Mac nut crusted ahi on rice with green bean tempura, so most of the Asian ingredients could be local.

I also know that local residents' diets and the cost of food are huge issues, but the idea is to do like solar electricity: subsidize the desired goal so it can compete at the start, and once the industry is established and mature, it's costs come down and it can compete on cost alone. That's when the locals can eat locally raised junk food.

Without a push for Ag, neighbor islands are going to start changing a lot faster as development takes over--and the change will be much more drastic. Whtviper1 keeps talking about Waikiki, and yes, it is tourist central, but Waikiki no longer has anything to lose--even it's beach is going away and has to be made artificially.

PS, come to Kauai for Mexican, we got plenty Taquerias now and taco trucks too.

I want to say upfront - I believe your thought process is very admirable and your heart is in the right place.

But - Hawaii had a major agriculture economy, and it turned out to be cost prohibitive. And, with the influx of tourist who don't have a palate for locally grown foods, it was doomed and still diminishing.

I love Kauai - but most places aren't Pacific Fusion Cuisine - Dukes's, fast food, hotel Cheeseburgers, etc are the very much the norm. Sure, there are some great restaurants with Pacific Fusion - and most are incredibly expensive and are a special night on the town.

You could subsidize L&L 15% and I don't think it would make more people patronize it - they have a following - but for many, including me - it is mystery meat and well - not that good.

You must have a strategy to overcome the high cost of ag land and labor to make it work - because of that, that is why so much land that is farmable sits bare.

[hawaiian by heart]

@whtviper1

I think you just hit on an issue that has effected alot of markets in Hawai'i. Hawai'i has always been truely unique in past generations. The changes today towards a more mainland shift in preferences towards foods, lifestyles, doing business etc thou not evil or wrong. It does leave one question if its substainable over the long haul? Questions of cost over agriculture and preferences can be solved by a change in thinking or doing things differently on a society level. Yeah chances of change on a society level are slim. But you cant ignore the special issues that island life poses for too long, without it biting you later. I believe change without proper planning is a major issue people on Hawai'i have faced. By not being food sufficient it really leaves the islands valnerable. Supply lines for food can be cut easily.

Solutions using our current way of doing things? I can only see more emphasis on ag zoned land and subsidising farmers and ag to encourage growth in this area as a solution.

[whtviper1]

How many places on the mainland could be food self sufficient. How much can they grow in let's say - Phoenix?

[hotzcatz]

Actually, what with the dwindling water supplies the more pressing question may be "how much can they grow in California?"

If the mainland keeps fracking up their water, as well as add in over building and over population which also puts bigger demands on what water is left, Hawaii may be forced to become an agricultural mecca since we have the rainfall for food production. We may have to feed them at some point.

I've seen a lot of diversified farming start to happen on the Big Island since sugar left. Not enough to feed the state and I don't know if it has dented the percentages of imported food much, but there's much more diversified ag than there was in the mid-nineties. There's rumors of a farmer's market "destination" sort of thing being built outside of Honokaa. Something about a farmer's market with farm demonstrations and some processing facilities as well. Kinda mixing a "farm experience" in with a farmer's market or some such. They've got the site selected but I'm not sure how far along they are with the whole thing. Just one more step towards more farming so it's a good thing.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Actually, what with the dwindling water supplies the more pressing question may be "how much can they grow in California?"

If the mainland keeps fracking up their water, as well as add in over building and over population which also puts bigger demands on what water is left, Hawaii may be forced to become an agricultural mecca since we have the rainfall for food production. We may have to feed them at some point.

I have to interject, the assumption that "Hawai'i has the rainfall" may not be a sound one. In several areas we've had drought several recent years. One of the reasons that local grass fed beef became much more available than it had been is that Parker Ranch and others had to cut back their herds because their pastureland was so badly affected by drought and there wasn't enough water for the cows to drink, and the culls went to the local tables instead of being shipped out to the mainland. And now climate scientists are taking about shifting winds and current patterns leading to permanent changes in storm patterns, trade wind direction, adding up to predictions that Hawai'i will become hotter and dryer in the years to come.

I've seen a lot of diversified farming start to happen on the Big Island since sugar left. Not enough to feed the state and I don't know if it has dented the percentages of imported food much, but there's much more diversified ag than there was in the mid-nineties. There's rumors of a farmer's market "destination" sort of thing being built outside of Honokaa. Something about a farmer's market with farm demonstrations and some processing facilities as well. Kinda mixing a "farm experience" in with a farmer's market or some such. They've got the site selected but I'm not sure how far along they are with the whole thing. Just one more step towards more farming so it's a good thing.

I love all the diversification that's going on, and I would welcome a broader selection at the farmers markets. That's something nobody has mentioned yet, that as much as I love the farmers markets I can't do all my shopping there... the selection is limited and the prices are high, plus some local crops are seasonal. That's when produce from the Southern Hemisphere at the supermarkets rules.

And there has been a successful campaign to educate chefs about local specialty foods and how to incorporate them into fusion cooking. But let's be honest, they're paying top dollar for pretty foods, and exotic foods that can garnish a dish, not be the dish. Local produce for a busy working mom who just wants to pull something out of the freezer to get the kids fed? That's going to be a hard sell.

Still, when you get past the gentleman farmers raising high value items for the luxury trade, like vanilla and cocoa and coffee, who all complain they have trouble getting enough workers at harvest time, the more commodity oriented operations are chronically short of workers because it's hard physical work and a lot of people just aren't interested in doing it. Creating an available labor supply seems likely to be the biggest nut to crack in order to expand local farming.

[doitright1]

Thank you all for the great food for thought here. I am going through everyone's posts and looking for solid resources to back up the claims.


@KauaiHiker - Very good points! I am not sure if I should address them in my five minute talk though.

I do realize that although half of all of HI lands are used for agriculture and we still import 93% of our food, potentially a large amount of the products of that ag land is exported. But I have not been able to find a solid number for this. In my talk where I put -> “Some people point at urbanization”, I would like to replace that part with the concern about too much exports of HI’s agriculture. But I need a valid source to back this up with solid numbers. Any ideas here? Or should I just leave it as I have it?

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Actually, if you want Hawaii to feed itself, a plethora of gardening clubs, gardening lessons, seminars, etc., might be of more use than trying to do it on an industrial scale. During WWII (or was it WWI?) anyway, during one of the wars everyone had a "victory" garden and they estimated those home gardens provided 40% of the nation's vegetables.

"Victory Gardens: Winners and Losers" by Barbara Bamberger Scott page one

That is quite an interesting read about “Victory Gardens.” I do think he will bring this topic up. But my response to this is it will not work.

Unemployment Rates for States
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Hawaii is one of the states with the lowest unemployment rates in the country. So, that means everyone works. Most people I know work two jobs. It is unrealistic to think that Hawaii as a whole will be able to put in the time to maintain WWII type Victory Gardens and work two fulltime jobs.

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

There's rumors of a farmer's market "destination" sort of thing being built outside of Honokaa. Something about a farmer's market with farm demonstrations and some processing facilities as well. Kinda mixing a "farm experience" in with a farmer's market or some such. They've got the site selected but I'm not sure how far along they are with the whole thing. Just one more step towards more farming so it's a good thing.

Do you have any further information on this? I don't see anything on Google. I would hate to have something come up that I have not researched.

Originally Posted by OpenD

The cost of ingredients on that plate could be cheaper than a steak and potato, to be honest. The ahi slice is the only expensive ingredient. Rice is cheap... but not local, and probably will never be again... and green beans are cheap. If you look carefully, a lot of the "fusion" dishes are like that... one main ingredient, with lots of cheap ingredients around it, using a lot of craftsmanship to disguise the fact that you don't get as much food as the old standards.

I totally agree with this and this was one of my main regrets of spending over $600 when I took my gf to Vintage Cave for dinner this past summer. She enjoyed it immensely but I was furious when we left.