Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Columbus vying for 2016 Political Conventions (Reading: school district, beaches)
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It's obvious that you have some kind of "Cleveland Inferiority Complex". You need to go see a doctor!!
First of all, I know the city of Cleveland inside and out, so I sure as hell don't need a tourism lesson from someone like yourself!! Second of all, in my previous post I said that Cleveland is not head and shoulders above Columbus and Cincinnati. Cities like Chicago and DC are head and shoulders above Columbus and Cincinnati, not Cleveland, though in my opinion Cleveland has more to offer than the other 2C's. So while it's very admirable and touching that you felt the need to write a tourism manual in response to my earlier post, you would be better served using that same effort in locating some Common Sense!! And take Mr. Kamms with you!!!
LMAO I loved this post, those guys are way over the top for their love of Cleveland. Excellent post totally agree man. I personally like Columbus the best of any Ohio City.
It's interesting Columbus feels the need for limited light-rail when its annual ridership figures are under 20 million/year. For being on par with Cincinnati and Cleveland metro, why is the ridership so low? Cinci's isn't much better but Cleveland's is way down as well from its historic peak, yet growing as well.
Cleveland's light-rail is over 100 years old and was designed for Shaker Heights residents; its ridership needs improvement and could be remedied with a connector up E 9th Street. A minimal re-route.
Building a light-rail from scratch is quite expensive but I understand your need to downplay costs.
Columbus should try BRT first.
Cincinnati's streetcar in its current design will be a money pit. Again, Cinci is trying to create an image, a la Portland, and will throw any amount of $ into a streetcar just to say it has one.
Its ridership figures are constantly growing, but includes only a regular bus system. No rail, no BRT, no trolley or streetcar. Compare apples to apples, meaning compare Columbus to cities that have nothing else. From what I've seen in the past, it's not the best, but neither anywhere near the worst.
From what I understand, Cleveland's rail system has had just one expansion in the past 80 or so years. Why is that?
I didn't say it would be cheap, but there have been recent studies on costs for building 3 lines, not just the airport line, and the cost was hundreds of millions shy of 1 billion.
Columbus will have it's first BRT line in 2017.
I think we should probably let Cincy's line be finished and up and running a bit before it's declared an outright failure, don't you think?
Its ridership figures are constantly growing, but includes only a regular bus system. No rail, no BRT, no trolley or streetcar. Compare apples to apples, meaning compare Columbus to cities that have nothing else. From what I've seen in the past, it's not the best, but neither anywhere near the worst.
From what I understand, Cleveland's rail system has had just one expansion in the past 80 or so years. Why is that?
I didn't say it would be cheap, but there have been recent studies on costs for building 3 lines, not just the airport line, and the cost was hundreds of millions shy of 1 billion.
Columbus will have it's first BRT line in 2017.
I think we should probably let Cincy's line be finished and up and running a bit before it's declared an outright failure, don't you think?
Cleveland's rail has expanded a few times in the last 60 years, so fact check first before you spread additional incorrect information. The last expansion was in 1996.
As far as Cinci's streetcar, the project is already in the red on operating expenses and it's not opening for another year and a half. I agree, it needs to up and running to determine its ultimate success, but unless it is going out into city and suburbs, this initial line is just moving people around a small area, people that have to get into this small area by other means, mostly by an automobile. It's not pulling them in from anywhere else.
Columbus should have a comparable amount of riders as Cinci, at a minimum. Must have lousy bus system in Columbus then; so let's build a light-rail system. I would suggest enhancing COTA service generally, establish Columbus as real transit city before laying rails to Port Columbus, Polaris, Arena District or wherever it's supposed to go. Again, do it on your own dime. Oh, and those recent ''studies on cost'' are always reliable figures.
It's even better with the ''Let's build a bullet train to Chicago'' nonsense coming from Columbus and Cincinnati, the former with no Amtrak service at all and the latter with 3 middle of the night Amtrak trains per week. Do this on your own dime for sure.
LMAO I loved this post, those guys are way over the top for their love of Cleveland. Excellent post totally agree man. I personally like Columbus the best of any Ohio City.
To each his own, again this thread is about the 3 Ohio Cs competing for a political convention. Cleveland won; I never said it was the best city in Ohio or the US.
Columbus and Cincinnati posters have turned this negative because I guess they can't handle the fact that a forum devoted to a topic about the 3 Ohio Cs competing for a national event is mentioning Cleveland as the winner because it did, in fact, win.
Cleveland's rail has expanded a few times in the last 60 years, so fact check first before you spread additional incorrect information. The last expansion was in 1996.
As far as Cinci's streetcar, the project is already in the red on operating expenses and it's not opening for another year and a half. I agree, it needs to up and running to determine its ultimate success, but unless it is going out into city and suburbs, this initial line is just moving people around a small area, people that have to get into this small area by other means, mostly by an automobile. It's not pulling them in from anywhere else.
Columbus should have a comparable amount of riders as Cinci, at a minimum. Must have lousy bus system in Columbus then; so let's build a light-rail system. I would suggest enhancing COTA service generally, establish Columbus as real transit city before laying rails to Port Columbus, Polaris, Arena District or wherever it's supposed to go. Again, do it on your own dime. Oh, and those recent ''studies on cost'' are always reliable figures.
It's even better with the ''Let's build a bullet train to Chicago'' nonsense coming from Columbus and Cincinnati, the former with no Amtrak service at all and the latter with 3 middle of the night Amtrak trains per week. Do this on your own dime for sure.
Do you have links to the history of Cleveland rail? I'm interested just from the historical aspects.
Cincinnati's streetcar can't have operating costs until it's actually operating. You might be referring to construction costs, but that's not the same thing. And the city had to fight tooth and nail to get even this much built. You can't build a full system in a few years, anyway. Certainly, Cleveland's did not appear overnight, as you mention at least a few expansions over the decades.
COTA has been pretty lousy for a long time. They are trying to rectify the service problem, and that's why ridership numbers continue to rise in recent years, but it's still a work in progress.
That said, I looked at the passenger trip totals for both cities, and it appears that Columbus actually surpassed Cincinnati in 2012, as shown by the graph. Not sure why, but Cincy's passenger trips have plummeted in recent years. I don't have 2014 comparison numbers for both, but Columbus rose to about 19.3 million trips last year.
And what do you mean by "do it on your own dime"? Any transit project will likely be funded through a mix of federal grants and through a public vote, just like most are in other cities. And regardless of the reliability of the ultimate cost figures, there is nothing else to go on except them. Guessing and making assumptions is worthless.
BTW, the Columbus-Chicago HSR line is a 3-state, multi-city collaborative effort. Columbus would be just be one stop. Preliminary studies are done and the environmental impact study is in progress.
I want to congratulate Cleveland and also cbus and cincy for making final cuts..the conventions don't pull good tv ratings anymore but are huge for hotels and local economies.I always say what's important is Ohio is still relevant.
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I want to congratulate Cleveland and also cbus and cincy for making final cuts..the conventions don't pull good tv ratings anymore but are huge for hotels and local economies.I always say what's important is Ohio is still relevant.
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Uh, only Cleveland (RNC) and Columbus (DNC) made the final cuts. Sorry, I hate that point 'cause I'm gonna be pummeled, but that's the way it went. Cincinnati withdrew before it would have been eliminated due to its outdated arena.
Do you have links to the history of Cleveland rail? I'm interested just from the historical aspects.
Cincinnati's streetcar can't have operating costs until it's actually operating. You might be referring to construction costs, but that's not the same thing. And the city had to fight tooth and nail to get even this much built. You can't build a full system in a few years, anyway. Certainly, Cleveland's did not appear overnight, as you mention at least a few expansions over the decades.
COTA has been pretty lousy for a long time. They are trying to rectify the service problem, and that's why ridership numbers continue to rise in recent years, but it's still a work in progress.
That said, I looked at the passenger trip totals for both cities, and it appears that Columbus actually surpassed Cincinnati in 2012, as shown by the graph. Not sure why, but Cincy's passenger trips have plummeted in recent years. I don't have 2014 comparison numbers for both, but Columbus rose to about 19.3 million trips last year.
And what do you mean by "do it on your own dime"? Any transit project will likely be funded through a mix of federal grants and through a public vote, just like most are in other cities. And regardless of the reliability of the ultimate cost figures, there is nothing else to go on except them. Guessing and making assumptions is worthless.
BTW, the Columbus-Chicago HSR line is a 3-state, multi-city collaborative effort. Columbus would be just be one stop. Preliminary studies are done and the environmental impact study is in progress.
I don't have a direct link but the internet has some hits to view for Cleveland's rail history. Cleveland was/is pretty transit progressive; much was derailed by politicians though.
I don't think Cinci's streetcar received federal money which is why there is an issue about operating funds before the system is up and running. Some money (can't recall the source) for operating the system, otherwise guaranteed, is no longer a guarantee. This is why the city had to fight tooth and nail to get this thing started. So, it has to expand fairly quickly to be a financial success.
It's obvious that you have some kind of "Cleveland Inferiority Complex". You need to go see a doctor!!
First of all, I know the city of Cleveland inside and out, so I sure as hell don't need a tourism lesson from someone like yourself!! Second of all, in my previous post I said that Cleveland is not head and shoulders above Columbus and Cincinnati. Cities like Chicago and DC are head and shoulders above Columbus and Cincinnati, not Cleveland, though in my opinion Cleveland has more to offer than the other 2C's. So while it's very admirable and touching that you felt the need to write a tourism manual in response to my earlier post, you would be better served using that same effort in locating some Common Sense!! And take Mr. Kamms with you!!!
Again, when you don't have the facts, turn to nonsensical, personal insults. How could anybody intimately familiar with Cleveland have a "Cleveland Inferiority Complex" in any discussion of the merits of Cleveland versus Columbus? That's almost as humorous as talking about a "New York City Inferiority Complex" when talking about a Big Apple native's feelings of his city versus Buffalo, Columbus, Cleveland, or even Chicago! LOL! I would need to see a doctor if I claimed to be all-knowing about Cleveland and yet somehow felt it was an imperative to falsely diminish it versus Columbus (hint! hint!).
Facts: Columbus has no franchises for the top 3 major sports. It has no world-class, let alone national-class cultural institutions. It doesn't have a major international tourist attraction such as the Rock Hall. And, as noted in post 410, the long list goes on, and on, and on.
Are Chicago and DC more superior to Columbus than Cleveland. Sure, but so what? The superiority of Cleveland and Cincinnati to Columbus is significant and contrary to your vitriol, the differences are especially tangible and meaningful for residents of those cities, not only tourists.
E.g., anybody who has visited both the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Columbus Museum of Art, would quickly understand the difference between Cleveland and Columbus, regardless of how you would describe it. Anybody that knows anything about both cities could produce a long list of similar comparisons.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.
Anybody can claim to know anything, but if you defend persons who want to diminish Cleveland and aggrandize Columbus to the point of ridiculousness, then you're joining the certified "know-nothing" parade. We are what we appear to be, and IMO, you appear incredibly ignorant about Cleveland and the differences between Cleveland and Columbus.
I'm not writing this for you or other close-minded Columbus partisans, but for those persons who know little about one or more about the three Cs. Comparing Columbus with Cleveland isn't even as reasonable as trying to equate Pittsburgh with Philadelphia, another similar intra-state debate that sometimes rages in our neighboring state.
I wouldn't have engaged in this forum except for the baloney that I was reading about Cleveland, especially in comparison to Columbus. I deeply appreciate Columbus for what it is, but it truly is NOT a city in which I particularly would choose to live, given what is meaningful in my life.
E.g., the Cleveland Museum of Art, apart from its amazing permanent galleries, on its own is a wonder of exhibits, events and performances, even with an exquisite film series, that exceeds the combined similar offerings of Columbus in any given year. Throw in the renown Cleveland Orchestra, PlayhouseSquare, the Beck Center, Karamu, even the acclaimed Cinematheque at the Cleveland Institute of the Art, and much more, and the combined cultural heft of Cleveland versus Columbus becomes overwhelming. That matters to me, but so do the major pro sports.
One cultural mainstay in Columbus that I enjoy that has no exact equivalent in Cleveland to my knowledge is Shadowbox Live.
FYI, Kamms and I aren't exactly posting buddies if you had followed our posting history on the Cleveland forum.
It's doubtful, however, that he's going anywhere and I know I'm not. So get off your indignant high-horse and defend Columbus with some facts, if it's within your ability to do so.
Stick to the objective reality, or continue to look like a ridiculous dufus who knows nothing about Cleveland despite your all-knowing claims.
Last edited by WRnative; 02-14-2015 at 01:08 AM..
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