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Oh great, instead of intelligent conversation, we get tired, irrational and juvenile AM radio nonsense puked all over the page.
You're welcome to contribute solutions at any time. Let's hear how you would encourage the creation of jobs and turn our state's economy around
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Originally Posted by SWOH
Hensleya1, good points but I don't believe a lot of your stats, particularly the 16% mass transit funding from the gas tax or John Kasich's intervention into the streetcar under Mark Mallory's leadership. I'll be able to double check them in about a week. So I do apologize for the delayed response, but it will be coming and I am looking forward to this debate. May cause me to think differently about Kasich haha.
Here's something on the mass transit pork barrel gravy train:
Every time you buy a gallon of gas in this nation, you pay 18.2 cents to Uncle Sam. The original rationalization for the federal gas tax was that it was collected in a "Highway Trust Fund" and used to pay for road infrastructure.
In 1983, a transit account was created [pdf], diverting 20 percent of the trust fund to pay for the mass transit dreams of local potentates. The Highway Trust Fund (which President Barack Obama is reportedly planning to rename "Transportation Trust Fund") has paid for railroad pork all over the country. Here’s Rep. John Lewis (D-Georgia) taking a bow for having spent your gas tax on Atlanta transit developments including the MARTA Smart-Card fare system, the Lovejoy to Griffin Commuter Rail Line, the BeltLine, and something called the Atlanta Inter-Modal Passenger Facility.
But now the highway trust fund is broke. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the fund ran a deficit of $8 billion in 2011 and will be in the red by $10 billion this year. Eliminating the transit account, which doles out between $2 billion and $4 billion a year, would not close that gap, but the widening deficit has bolstered the argument [pdf] that money collected from drivers should properly be earmarked for roads.
The single most effective way to close the highway trust fund deficit without raising taxes is to stop subsidizing mass transit which, for years, has enjoyed billions of dollars of investment at the expense of drivers - and has made no appreciable dent in traffic congestion anywhere in the nation.
So, for all the talk the streetcar and transit boosters like to have about "their subsidizing drivers", let's have a real talk about how many transit programs wouldn't even exist if they weren't constantly subsidized by drivers.
And here's something about Kasich and the Cincinnati streetcar - namely, one of his first acts when in office was to pull the state funding because the state had an $8 billion deficit and zero money left in the rainy day fund (thank Ted Strickland for that one):
Gov. John Kasich said he can't justify spending $52 million in state money for Cincinnati's streetcar - the new governor's most emphatic statement on what Cincinnati leaders consider a major economic development project.
"The mayor of Cincinnati - who's a good man - this streetcar project was important to him," Kasich said. "He said, 'If we build it they'll come.' We don't agree (with) 'build it and they'll come' and it costs an awful lot of money."
The state's nine-member TRAC board is set to vote on the streetcar's $52 million in April [2011].
[The money was obviously pulled. Rep. Steve Chabot, from Cincinnati, went on to insert a provision into the federal budget preventing any federal dollars from being sent down that rabbit trail... Guess what, Mark Mallory came up with the money anyway. I'm not sure how, but I can bet it was done by raiding the pension fund or gutting local services... Maybe someone from Cincinnati can contribute here and tell us what kind of smoke and mirrors game allowed the city to come up with $150 million?]
There are very few places in Ohio where one can live comfortably without a car. Perhaps the economy would improve, if so many people--especially those who can least afford it--weren't required to spend such a large chunk of their income on owning and maintaining their mode of transportation, just so they can continue to get to and from work?
I wonder how many Libertarians feel warm and cuddly about Kasich, and are willing to support him for President, especially as his campaign squashed the Ohio Libertarians in last year's Ohio governor's race despite claims to the contrary by Republicans in federal court.
Only the members of the Republican-controlled Ohio Elections Commission can believe that Kasich and Republicans paid $300,000 in legal fees only to embarrass the Democrats and not derail the Libertarian efforts to get their candidate on the ballot.
If you like political cronyism fueled by moneyed interests, including the suppression of political opponents, you have to love John Kasich.
Of course, Libertarians nationally are opposed to moneyed, special interests and likely will have long memories as Kasich attempts to mount a national presidential campaign.
There are very few places in Ohio where one can live comfortably without a car. Perhaps the economy would improve, if so many people--especially those who can least afford it--weren't required to spend such a large chunk of their income on owning and maintaining their mode of transportation, just so they can continue to get to and from work?
Maybe I view things differently but I haven't taken any form of public transit since the day I turned 16 and had my driver's license. Within a week of having a license I had bought a car in cash... I had been working as a bag and cart boy at Kroger's for the past year with the specific intent to save money for a car.
Why? Because I hated the idea of relying on others to accomplish my most basic tasks. Yes, I came of age the first time gas hit $3 a gallon and it was a real pain in the ass to keep gas in the car. Many times the car was parked due to lack of gas, with the exception of going straight to work and back. But I stuck to my word, and I haven't taken any form of transit since. The only exceptions to that have been when I was on vacation.
I hate the idea of having to wait on a bus that may or may not show up. Many times, they are known to keep driving and ignore the people waiting at the bus stop if they're running late, because they know they'll be written up if they are too late in running their routes. They serve to clog traffic on city streets as people wait for the bus to load or unload. They all require extensive subsidy to even exist (as an example, Dayton's RTA depends on subsidies for 86% of its operating budget). Transit all across the world faces similar issues.... being constantly dependent on subsidy just to survive.
I don't view owning a car as particularly expensive. I've paid as little as $400 for cars in good running condition that had little or nothing wrong with them. Haggling goes a long way towards finding a good deal, which is a lost art in America.
Liability insurance is fairly inexpensive (to add another car to my policy would typically only add $10-20 a month to my bill). Gas is... well, gas, but today's cars are far more fuel efficient than even 20 years ago, and this continues to be the trend. And a little know how goes a long way towards performing basic maintenance on cars. That's also a lost art, our society has become so codependent on each other people that many would just throw up their hands and call for help... and gladly fork over $80 an hour for a mechanic's labor when 80% of jobs you can do yourself with basic hand tools.
And before you think I'm an old guy... I'm 25. I'm smack in the middle of the "millenial" generation that's supposed to be all about walkability, living in the city, sustainability, carlessness, etc... In my generation I don't see it to be nearly as widespread as the bloggers make it out to be. Maybe a quarter, or a third, of all the people I know want to live that lifestyle. In all my recent history I've had between two and four cars titled in my name. I currently have three, and all of them are paid for and run great. It's not changing any time soon.
The single most effective way to close the highway trust fund deficit without raising taxes is to stop subsidizing mass transit which, for years, has enjoyed billions of dollars of investment at the expense of drivers - and has made no appreciable dent in traffic congestion anywhere in the nation.
So, for all the talk the streetcar and transit boosters like to have about "their subsidizing drivers", let's have a real talk about how many transit programs wouldn't even exist if they weren't constantly subsidized by drivers.
And here's something about Kasich and the Cincinnati streetcar - namely, one of his first acts when in office was to pull the state funding because the state had an $8 billion deficit and zero money left in the rainy day fund (thank Ted Strickland for that one):
[The money was obviously pulled. Rep. Steve Chabot, from Cincinnati, went on to insert a provision into the federal budget preventing any federal dollars from being sent down that rabbit trail... Guess what, Mark Mallory came up with the money anyway. I'm not sure how, but I can bet it was done by raiding the pension fund or gutting local services... Maybe someone from Cincinnati can contribute here and tell us what kind of smoke and mirrors game allowed the city to come up with $150 million?]
You should probably read up on the history of the gas tax and where it actually originated and why before spewing such garbage. Transit is not the issue whatsoever. The gas tax wasn't even supposed to fund roads at all.
It continues to amaze me how people can continually excuse such a wasteful system and yet constantly demand perfection from something they deem worthless simply because they don't use it themselves. I can't think of a more perfect example of hypocrisy. And it always seems to come from members of the same generation.
These forums can be great for gaining perspective, if one is willing to acknowledge it.
I'm legally blind, so I never planned to get my DL at 16. This has made me painfully aware of how dependent we are on the automobile.
Also, I grew up in a relatively poor household. Looking back, I remember car ownership was often an excessively large burden for us. We always had food, but sometimes at the expense of having an unsafe vehicle, because Mom had to choose food over repairs the car needed.
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Why? Because I hated the idea of relying on others to accomplish my most basic tasks.
But, just like public transportation, you're still relying on others to pay their taxes to keep the infrastructure you use functional.
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But I stuck to my word, and I haven't taken any form of transit since.
So, because you've promised yourself that you won't use public transportation, you want to deny alternative modes of transportation to people who don't share your preference?
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I hate the idea of having to wait on a bus that may or may not show up. Many times, they are known to keep driving and ignore the people waiting at the bus stop if they're running late, because they know they'll be written up if they are too late in running their routes.
I guess I won't be moving to Dayton any time soon. In the last 15 years, I haven't experienced anything like that in Youngstown.
This is true of all forms of transportation. The extent to which they are subsidized may vary, but they are all subsidized. It's my belief that, if we spent more on public transportation, making it better and more accessible to more people, more people would chose to use it. Ultimately, this would lower the subsidy, as a percentage of total cost.
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I don't view owning a car as particularly expensive.
Tell that to the single mother who has to choose between a set of tires for the car, and a full month's groceries.
Last edited by JR_C; 05-24-2015 at 09:52 PM..
Reason: poor phrasing
You should probably read up on the history of the gas tax and where it actually originated and why before spewing such garbage. Transit is not the issue whatsoever. The gas tax wasn't even supposed to fund roads at all.
Try again. The gas tax was supposed to be used for one thing: roads. But since 1983, money has been siphoned off for things other than roads.
The transit boosters always talk about how the highway trust fund is out of money. It's out of money because the money is being spent on transit pork barrel projects everywhere. If that money hadn't been wasted on trains and streetcars, it would be available for use to fix the roads.
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In 1956, the outside interests agreed with congressional leaders on a compromise for funding the Interstate System. The gas tax would be increased to 3 cents, but highway user tax revenue from excise taxes on gasoline, tire rubber, tube rubber, and the sales tax on new trucks, buses, and trailers would be credited to a new Highway Trust Fund and reserved for use on the Interstate System and other highway projects.
...
The tax remained 4 cents a gallon until the Surface Transportation Assistance Act of 1982, which President Ronald Reagan approved on January 6, 1983. The Act increased the tax to 9 cents, but the legislation created two separate accounts in the Highway Trust Fund. The Highway Account would receive 8 cents of the revenue while the new Mass Transit Account would receive 1 cent of the gas tax.
I'm legally blind, so I never planned to get my DL at 16. This has made me painfully aware of how dependent we are on the automobile.
And I welcome differing perspectives.... and you illustrate in the starkest terms possible that not everybody can simply get behind the wheel and drive. I could easily expand that to include seniors, minors, a broad range of disabilities, and people who choose not to drive (insert your reason here).
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Originally Posted by JR_C
But, just like public transportation, you're still relying on others to pay their taxes to keep the infrastructure you use functional. So, because you've promised yourself that you won't use public transportation, you want to deny alternative modes of transportation to people who don't share your preference?
Drivers - through federal gas taxes, State gas taxes, license fees, plate fees, use tax on the cars, registration tags, inspection fees, etc. - are more than enough to sustain the road network and necessary administrative expenses.
I've never sought to deny anyone access to transportation. However, I am sick of the tired narrative that "drivers are subsidized, we need more mass transit". The opposite is true - despite spending hundreds of billions dollars nationwide on "transit", we have made no appreciable difference in traffic congestion or any percentage change in miles traveled by various transit.
I forget the exact number, but we spend something like 18% of all our transportation money on transit, and it only accounts for 1% of all miles traveled. As an economic investment, it is a sinkhole of unimaginable proportions.
Now does that need to be balanced with the need to provide alternative transportation for people who cannot drive? Absolutely, and they should be supported. But I'm tired of the "drivers are being subsidized by transit users, and transit needs more money" mantra.
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Originally Posted by JR_C
Tell that to the single mother who has to choose between a set of tires for the car, and a full month's groceries.
Is that any different from the person who has to pay for a new bus pass monthly? Or how about the sales or property taxes levied that pay for the transit? That extra quarter percent adds up quickly.
I don't deny the economy is **** which forces people to make decisions like that, though.
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Kasich squashes Libertarians
