Cleveland vs. Cincinnati (Columbus, Dayton, Springfield: new construction, restaurant, shops)

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

But state government has grown in recent decades (and so has OSU, for that matter, which has consistently been one of the largest universities in the country--significantly larger than anything else in any other corner of the state). The reality remains that there is a net loss of money and jobs for Cleveland and Cincinnati and a net gain for Columbus as far state government is concerned. I'm not complaining because one of these cities has to be a state capital, but I don't think it's fair to gloss it over. Columbus has done some good things in the FIRE industries, but state government has been a nice, recession-proof safety net for the city, one that the Queen City and the Forest City do not have.

But again, you're even doing Cincy a lot of disrespect here as well. Cincy, by all accounts, is in much better shape than Cleveland right now. It's metro population is growing pretty fast, and there is significant development downtown that is pretty easy to see. It does not have state gov't or a university near the size of OSU, so that can't be used as an excuse. It has found ways to turn itself around and it is doing so quickly.

Back in 1950, when Cleveland was approaching 1 million people, was at the peak of its prosperity, while Columbus was relegated to dead last in economy and importance, where was OSU and state gov't then? Sure, maybe both have grown over the years, but so has the city itself, as well as the state.

[1watertiger]

jbcmh81, you seem to think cleveland is the incredible-shrinking-woman... let me know when you can drive from downtown cbus 20-25 miles in any direction and not be in farm country then i will be impressed with cbus growth. hell, let me know when you can drive 10-15miles and not be in farmland.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

jbcmh81, you seem to think cleveland is the incredible-shrinking-woman... let me know when you can drive from downtown cbus 20-25 miles in any direction and not be in farm country then i will be impressed with cbus growth. hell, let me know when you can drive 10-15miles and not be in farmland.

For the last 60 years, it has lost 500,000 people. That's kind of significant. I've mentioned before that I think the losses are slowing, and in my "guess the 2010 census" thread, I actually had Cleveland proper growing some, but I guess we'll find out for sure by April 1st. It's entirely possible that all 3 cities are not doing well right now, who knows.

And yeah, you just kinda proved my point.

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You missed my point. Some posters here are suggesting that Columbus has some advantages over Cleveland and Cincinnati, and that's why it is growing. My point was that if that's all it is, then Cleveland, which I've been told has numerous things going for it that Columbus could only dream about, should be growing easily as well. Obviously it's not, so stating a few advantages vs. other cities is not the whole story. It doesn't give any credit for the city of Columbus doing certain things right as well as taking advantage of those (apparently very few) amenities that it does have.

Not really, no. Columbus' advantages are much more significant in that they're somewhat more recession-proof. The advantages I'm talking about are a fluke, but regardless, are not insignificant. We're talking about tens of thousands of jobs that come at the expense of taxpayers from all around the state. That's a net gain for Columbus and a net loss for Cincinnati.

Cleveland does have a lot going for it, things that Columbus could never dream of having. That said, the vast majority these things came at the expense of Clevelanders.

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

But again, you're even doing Cincy a lot of disrespect here as well. Cincy, by all accounts, is in much better shape than Cleveland right now. It's metro population is growing pretty fast, and there is significant development downtown that is pretty easy to see. It does not have state gov't or a university near the size of OSU, so that can't be used as an excuse. It has found ways to turn itself around and it is doing so quickly.

I'm not doing it a disservice. As I pointed out earlier, if the metro area is growing "pretty fast," it's happening outside of the central city. I know that Hamilton County grew very modestly (though I'm skeptical of those numbers), but the real growth is occurring in Kentucky.

The fact of the matter is that while perhaps Cincinnati is doing better than Cleveland (that's really saying a lot), it's not going through any sort of a Renaissance. If it had the inherent advantages that Capital City has, it would be in much better shape.

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

Back in 1950, when Cleveland was approaching 1 million people, was at the peak of its prosperity, while Columbus was relegated to dead last in economy and importance, where was OSU and state gov't then? Sure, maybe both have grown over the years, but so has the city itself, as well as the state.

You answered your own question. The state government, Ohio State, and the state as a whole have grown exponentially since then. Again, Columbus has done some good things to improve its status, but it owes quite a bit to its position as state capital. Especially in being able to weather the economic storm of the past decade or so.

[Clevelander17]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

For the last 60 years, it has lost 500,000 people. That's kind of significant. I've mentioned before that I think the losses are slowing, and in my "guess the 2010 census" thread, I actually had Cleveland proper growing some, but I guess we'll find out for sure by April 1st. It's entirely possible that all 3 cities are not doing well right now, who knows.

And yeah, you just kinda proved my point.

The population has shifted geographically.

[jbcmh81]

Wow, I just have never known a group of people to be so stubborn. I think you guys just literally can't say anything good about another city outside of Cleveland, especially if it is doing well in comparison. It must be exclusive to city data because the other city forums I visit are not like that.

I really do think some of you believe Columbus is stealing all of your people and money. There's really not a whole lot of other reasons to find this many ways to bash or de-legitimize a city's successes.

[nickolaseposter]

Originally Posted by Beavercreek33

Hey, Dayton isn't doing sh**. Keep talking, buddy. You know nothing about Cleveland and it shows. I am glad I left Dayton, everytime I go back up (I am still moving things out), Dayton just screams depression.

Beavercreek33? Which I'm going to suppose that meant you were living in Beavercreek at the time. Fantastic place to live. But its the suburbs. Nothing but malls and malls and strip malls and and parking lots. Its all new, has no history, no charm, and is extremely reliant on Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Without it, it would still be farmland like it was in the 80s. I think your of Dayton is skewed. There is actually quite a bit happening for Dayton. The streetcar idea is being talked about for Main Street as well. The street conversion and sidewalk transformation has literally made downtown much more convenient. The city placed bike lanes all over downtown and is now ranked the third most bike friendly city in the country. You can go canoeing right on the river by downtown via the newly remodeled Riverscape Metro Park. And there are plans for hundreds of new housing units from the Litehouse Town Homes Project, the Mendelson Lofts developments, and the Patterson Square development. These are all underway and are bringing 500 new residences downtown in the next 18 months. The Arcade is already being transformed as well and will have a Dorothy Lane Market and a bakery school in it. A recent cap on lichor liscences was lifted allowing more nightlife to open downtown. (The Oregon District has gained six new establishments in the past two months and downtown in general has seen 18 new establishments open in the past two months.) I'd suggest you look around more. There are signs of a turnaround.

[nickolaseposter]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

The fact of the matter is that while perhaps Cincinnati is doing better than Cleveland (that's really saying a lot), it's not going through any sort of a Renaissance.

I'm not trying to pick favorites at all. I feel all of our cities have great assets. As someone from Dayton, here is my outside perspective: Cincinnati is seeing a Renaissance. Its very clear. The last time Cleveland saw a new tallest tower was in the early 90s. It's twenty years later. Cincinnati just got their new tallest building, in 2011. And I'm not just going off of the infrastructure. If you look at all of the recent developments, its clear that Cincinnati has a much more advanced plan. I'm not saying Cleveland doesn't have the plans. But Cincinnati is ahead. The massive Banks project (comparable to what is Cleveland's Flats in some respects) is already partly finished and underway. The entire waterfront is extremely developed and friendly feeling. The new Grand American Tower sits glistening bright and beautiful at night near the riverfront. The new streetcar system as well as transportation hubs have alll been renovated. When I'm in downtown Cleveland, there are some cool spots. But let me reiterate- spots. The overall presense of downtown Cleveland is sorta blah. Downtown Cincinnati is covered with Starbucks, high-end restaurants, clothing stores like Saks Fifth and MAcy's and Tiffany's.

[Cleveland_Collector]

When was the last time NY city or Chicago saw a new tallest tower? The late 70's.

Cincinnati just had a tall building completed? I'll alert the media. Cleveland has the 19th tallest building in the US. As a matter of fact, Ohio's 3 tallest buildings are still on Cleveland's public square as of 2010. We also had a new high-rise completed in 2002. Besides, I never knew that new buildings were the benchmark for a city's Renaissance. But, since you do, where are your gleaming new medical campuses (we have several) and when will your Medical Mart facility, new convention center, and mixed use office facility be completed?

Btw, those from Dayton have an obvious Cincinnati bias, rather than an outside perspective. Also the last time I was in Cincy (January 2010) I didn't notice that the downtown area was covered in much of anything other than grime and panhandlers. So it has a few coffee shops, restaurants, and retail outlets. Big whoop. Which major Ohio city's downtown area doesn't?