Dallas vs OKC (Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Stillwater: restaurants, shop, manufacturing)
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For cities that are rising stars, it is not uncommon for those from larger metros to try to downplay that city.
OKC is that mid major city that gets picked on in the plains. People compare it to metros half its size with 1/5 the amenities. Wichita? Its a SMALL town.
With a population of close to 400,000, there is no way Wichita can be dismissed as merely being a SMALL town.
With a population of close to 400,000, there is no way Wichita can be dismissed as merely being a SMALL town.
Wichita metro is about 650K. So it's about half the size of the OKC metro. But getting compared to Wichita isn't too bad. One of our major malcontents has compared OKC to Amarillo, Lubbock, Des Moines and even Tallahassee.
Wichita metro is about 650K. So it's about half the size of the OKC metro. But getting compared to Wichita isn't too bad. One of our major malcontents has compared OKC to Amarillo, Lubbock, Des Moines and even Tallahassee.
So Wichita is a step up.
You do have a point here. Those comparing OKC to Lubbock should spend a weekend there.
Thanks for the additional feedback, it is greatly appreciated. To answer a few additional questions:
1. School district isn't a factor right now, but could be in the future. We are trying, but have had difficulties.
2. The Dallas job is located near North Lake and the DFW airport. So it's not downtown Dallas by any means, and looking at maps seems logical to think that areas like Las Colinas, Grapevine, Carrollton, Lewisville, etc. may be some alternate locations.
3. City living isn't a requirement. Like most, we would like to have nearby access to big events and good eats, but would be okay driving 30 minutes or so to reach those destinations. Ideally, our future home would be around 2,200 to 2,500 square feet, wooded lot, 1+ acres and would love a water feature of some sort (pond, lake view or pool). Personally I'd love it if I could be somewhere that I could build a dirt berm and shoot my guns, maybe have a secondary shop for the lawn equipment and toys (boat, camper, hot rods, etc).
4. Both jobs have great salaries and opportunities, but slightly different. One is a multi billion dollar company with several divisions. The work itself would be more challenging and unique, which I like. I would have a lead position, but because of the size of the company I would be one of several leads and have more competition to continue my rise up the ladder. The other company does about $300 million and also has multiple divisions. While the work would be less unique and high-profile, I would be the lead of a particular division and consequently be more of a major component of the company. Also, one company is employee owned, while the other is not. Granted, it's a small slice overall, but it feels good knowing you are a partial owner of sorts.
5. My wife is in the medical field, and has excellent opportunities at either city. Personally I think Dallas might offer an advantage, but she is very happy in Tulsa as-is and seems to think either location will be a good fit for her. Of course, fashion and shopping matters to her, but she's more of a country girl at heart and wants a place we grow veggies in the garden, and maybe have a few livestock animals to butcher and eat more natural.
The places I am thinking for residence in the DFW area that fit your answers above are going to be a good distance from your job near the DFW airport.
The commute in DFW during rush hour (and even non-rush hour) can be painful.
My advice is to do a house hunting trip for areas in and around your potential work location near DFW and factor in which job will be the best opportunity.
While the posts regarding which city has the most glamorous and exotic shopping, dining, and entertainment choices are entertaining, it does not mean squat when it takes you over an hour to get there because the North Tollway (or other thoroughfare) is a parking lot.
You may get some more in depth analysis on Dallas if you post this thread in the Dallas forum.
For cities that are rising stars, it is not uncommon for those from larger metros to try to downplay that city.
OKC is that mid major city that gets picked on in the plains. People compare it to metros half its size with 1/5 the amenities. Wichita? Its a SMALL town.
I have seen people compare Louisville to Evansville, IN. Even comparing Louisville to Dayton is laughable.
I would say OKC compares favorably with Louisville, Memphis, Richmond, at least as far as size and importance. OKC has alot of work to do as far as urbanizing and attracting the "cool kids."
Good points. I think economically, OKC compared right around middle of the pack compared to its peers. It's a work in progress in terms of urbanization, though it's much, much better than it even was five years ago. It still has some ground to cover though to catch up with the likes of Louisville, Memphis, and Richmond. In terms of attracting the "cool kids" that's going to be a bit more difficult. I would say that the perception most people have of OKC isn't far enough from the truth for the city to be able to re-invent its image at this time. It's not quite where Louisville is, which currently is a burgeoning Millennial hotspot in my opinion. The OKC stereotype is a little exaggerated at times, but it does have a lot of truth to it.
I think in terms of becoming a "hot spot", OKC faces the following obstacles.
1. OKC was never meant to be the primary city in Oklahoma and is not a historic urban center in the way places like Memphis, Louisville, or even smaller cities like Little Rock are. In Oklahoma, that is Tulsa and it definitely shows. Despite being the smaller city, Tulsa is ahead of OKC in a lot of ways and has some distinct advantages, especially as it pertains to being "trendy". Oklahoma City on the other hand feels more like a collection of small towns that have grown together to become the mid-sized sprawl it is today. Tulsa feels like a more classic urban city and it shows in its culture. When new retailers come to Oklahoma it's almost always Tulsa first and then a few years later maybe OKC. Tulsa is getting a downtown residential tower with a grocery store in it, something that is a pipe dream at the moment in OKC. Most touring musical acts, large and small, skip over OKC and play Tulsa (with the exception of country music which favors OKC). There is a reason for this.
2. Urban renewal - OKC once had a dense, beautiful, urban downtown but city leaders made the decision to demolish it all to build parking lots in the 1970s and 80s. A lot of cities made this mistake but few took it as far as OKC. In 2017, the "cool kid" cities are cities that avoided those kind of mistakes as much as possible and kept their walkable, urban cores. Louisville for instance is what OKC could have been had there not have been urban renewal to the extent that it happened.
3. Conservatism - One of OKC's stereotypes that is for the most part true. It's a very culturally conservative place and in 2017, it's hard to be a "cool city" when you are conservative. Like anywhere, there are gays, weed, and atheists in OKC, but things like that aren't talked about in the open and for good reason. Attitudes towards the LGBT community in OKC are about where a majority of the country was 20-30 years ago and attitudes toward marijuana might as well be at the height of the 1980s "War on Drugs". Oklahoma's liquor laws are still in the 1930s, though thanks to the recent vote this will be changing in a few years. Oklahoma is always one of the last to repeal blue laws i.e. laws that are for religious purpose that infringe on the rights of those who might not adhere to the dominant faith. Tattoos weren't even legal here until a few years ago for crying out loud. Fundamentalist Christianity dominates the culture, so much so that even one of OKC's downtown skyscrapers has a giant cross displayed in it. Oklahoma City checks off all the "buckle of the Bible Belt" boxes and as long as that is the dominant aspect of culture here, OKC will have a difficult time competing with the "cool kids."
4. Education - Oklahoma is known for its poor education system and I believe this deters a lot of investment that could be happening in OKC and steers a lot of corporations relocating from California towards Dallas or Austin rather than OKC. It also deters quality teachers from living or staying here. Oklahoma City is a perfect example of the fact that having a low cost of living and low traffic isn't by itself a big enough selling point to drive an economic boom. Why are companies relocating to Austin and Dallas from California by the dozens yet OKC can't even compete for any of them?
^ And you contribute greatly in promoting and exaggerating OKC's stereotypes.
Two of your points I don't fully agree or have problems with:
1. Though Tulsa was founded some 50 years before OKC, both cities' stock of historic architecture are from the same era. "OKC... is not a historic urban center... that is Tulsa and it definitely shows", I don't see much support for that argument. In terms of the overall built environment, both cities feel similar. I don't see how OKC feels more like an agglomeration of small towns anymore than Tulsa does, nor how Tulsa feels more like a classic city anymore than OKC does. I just don't see that. Sure, Tulsa sometimes does get the first new retailer to the state, but there are several that have come to OKC first over Tulsa, and from what I count up at the moment, OKC's firsts outnumber Tulsa's firsts. Downtown OKC also has a residential tower with a grocery store in the pipeline as well. I can probably see some truth in terms of touring musical acts, but the same is true in regards to OKC that don't go to Tulsa.
3. "Attitudes towards the LGBT community in OKC are about where a majority of the country was 20-30 years ago and attitudes toward marijuana might as well be at the height of the 1980s 'War on Drugs'." I haven't had any sort of experience that would convey dislike or disapproval of the LGBT community or marijuana here in OKC, perhaps due to my location and that most of my interactions happen within inner OKC. Bringing up Oklahoma's laws pertaining to alcohol and tattoos and using that to justify OKC's conservatism is not equitable and accurate, because then Tulsa's conservatism should also be mentioned but that never happens.
I don't know know what is being defined as the "cool kids", but I think that attraction to OKC is already happening. From the Census' 2015 estimates, those aged 18-34 with a Bachelor's made up a larger share of OKC's population in 2015 than in 2010, 43% and 36% respectively. Also, a report released in 2016 by CBRE showed that among small markets of tech jobs (markets with less than 50,000 tech workers), OKC was 3rd with a 59% increase of tech talent from 2010-2015.
I honestly do not care if you can smoke weed in public, buy booze on Sunday or are straight.
As far as no investments in OKC - I have a pretty good idea of what SO's department alone brought in since 11/2016; non IT. Most of our neighbors are new to OK and none work entry level jobs. So - what are you missing out on?
OKC compared to Wichita?! Ummm......no. OKC can now be more compared to Kansas City, Louisville, and even Denver just a bit.
I'm sorry, but OKC is in a totally different league compared to Wichita. The job market is FAR better in OKC than in Wichita, OKC's metro is nearly 2.5 times larger and it just has FAR more shopping, dining, and entertainment options than Wichita. I can certainly see where the look and feel to a certain degree can be similar to Wichita, but that's about it. Wichita doesn't even have a Whataburger or Waffle House for those that like chains.
Oklahoma City has a growing downtown and skyline and while downtown Wichita is really starting to pick up with activity, it still can't compare with what's going on in OKC. At least OKC has a growing skyline while poor Wichita hasn't added anything significant in decades unless you count an arena.
I'm not trying to knock my own city, but I know it is just silly that OKC and Wichita can even be compared to each other. I mean for goodness sake Boeing EXPANDED in Oklahoma City while it left Wichita.
Enough of that though. I would tend to agree with others here that have said that if you want a more urban experience, Dallas is definitely the one to choose, but OKC is really growing and coming into its own and is more affordable. Personally, I thoroughly hate the traffic in Dallas and would not move there just because of that alone. OKC has a good highway system that is nowhere near as clogged as Dallas and does not have tolls in the city. I recently drove through both cities on the way to and back from New Orleans and the differences between traffic in both cities is just night and day. Not to say OKC never experiences stop and go traffic, but compared to Dallas it is just so much more smoother.
What are you using to compare cities with? On what basis are you comparing OKC to Denver on? That'd be like comparing Dallas to Los Angeles, it makes no sense. Though the two cities come close, LA is still out of Dallas's league by a long shot. Oceans, shopping, food, world attractions... Dallas doesn't even come close. Yet Dallas is still a cosmopolitan city. OKC is not. You can tell that just because OKC constantly says it is big league. So in this case, if you are going to compare Dallas to OKC, than absolutely you can compare Wichita to OKC. In Denver's case, I don't see how OKC is comparable. It compares to Louisville.
I pick OKC because I don't like Louisville, Nashville, St. Louis, KC, or most rust belt and southern cities.
OKC Metro 3 has two tolled freeways. Kilpatrick Turnpike, H.E. Bailey Spur, and H.E. Bailey turnpike.
OKC is better compared to Fort Worth but even then it's hard because of its proximity to Dallas. Good cities I like tp compare OKC to are cities that I want OKC to be more like but are more similar in population. In this case, I'd pick Austin before Denver just because of the population difference. I'd like OKC to follow in Austin, Portland, and Salt Lake City footsteps personally and compare themselves to those cities.
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