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Oh that wasn't even everything. I have to disagree with the small market comparability though, because I've been to places about the size of OKC and they have a bit more. They're lacking compared to larger markets, but still fare better than OKC. What drove me crazy about OKC was how insular and cliquish the people are there. I faked that accent and slowed down my speech a few times, and was amazed at how much friendlier people are when you sound "familiar" to them. I screwed up a time or two in some shibboleth, and it made people suspicious.
I agree with your last paragraph. I don't even think of OKC as a city for the reasons I initially listed, plus its lack of diversity. I think it feels urban to people who don't know any better and it's more familiar to people who move there from rural Oklahoma. It must seem exciting for them.
Oh I agree.
OKC punches below its weight even for its size. Tulsa offers more and is 33% or so smaller. OKC compares more with places like Wichita, Chattanooga, or Tallahassee FL. It's a bit of an upgrade from Lubbock/Amarillo. However many of those things aren't that much better in other cities OKC's size than they are here. I have the opportunity to move to Jacksonville FL myself and while I believe it would be an upgrade compared to OKC, it will still fall short compared to major cities. If I would have known what I know now prior to moving here, I never would have come here even though it was a great job opportunity.
I know a guy who moved here from Jackson MS and loves it. It feels like a city to him. I have never met anybody who has moved here from a real city and was happy unless they were looking to settle down in a slower pace of life.
Interesting conversation. Having lived in both, I would say neither really appeal to any person looking for " big city life" but each have their own positives. Tulsa has aspects that are more representative of a bigger city that seem inherent in its fabric, while OKC has manufactured areas like the Bricktown Canal that have appeal. OKC seems to try a little harder to appear "cool" to the younger crowd, while Tulsa seems to realize it is and always will be a mid-sized city and doesn't have aspirations of more but instead focuses on improving what it has. In other words, Tulsa is fine being Tulsa, while OKC has over-inflated dreams of becoming Austin or Nashville, but that will never happen.
Last edited by DenverBound41; 03-29-2015 at 08:01 PM..
Interesting conversation. Having lived in both, I would say neither really appeal to any person looking for " big city life" but each have their own positives. Tulsa has aspects that are more representative of a bigger city that seem inherent in its fabric, while OKC has manufactured areas like the Bricktown Canal that have appeal. OKC seems to try a little harder to appear "cool" to the younger crowd, while Tulsa seems to realize it is and always will be a mid-sized city and doesn't have aspirations of more but instead focuses on improving what it has. In other words, Tulsa is fine being Tulsa, while OKC has over-inflated dreams of becoming Austin or Nashville, but that will never happen.
You make some great points.
While I believe OKC and Tulsa somewhat complement each other with Tulsa having more "big city" urban fabric and amenities and OKC having professional sports and most of the state's higher education infrastructure, both cities fall short for those looking for a genuine city experience.
OKC civic boosters and the Chamber of Commerce have been trying very hard to make the city appear "cool" and vibrant over the past several years. Doing so sets people like myself, dvxhd, and others who have experienced real cities up for disappointment. The video below is a huge offender.
Places like Austin and Nashville are booming because they are desirable. They are places that people want to live and they deliver on what they advertise. They have overall positive national perceptions. Can the same be said about OKC? Until it can, no matter what the Chamber of Commerce says, this will never be that kind of boom town.
Most of my young professional friends who like OKC and don't want to move are those who went to college at OU or UCO and are still well connected through their alumni network. For them its a completely different experience than somebody relocating from another city knowing nobody.
Tulsa is just fine with being Tulsa. Are there things that need improvement, yes, but we aren't going to chase down the latest "big thing" just to puff our chest. The new park is a prime example of Tulsa doing it's own thing. Our big wigs could have dumped all that money into a sports team like OKC but a park can't just up and leave if the economy tanks. A park doesn't make national news or buzz buzz social media (constructing one does). Once completed, does provide yet another natural space to spend the afternoon.
The city leadership decided to play to our strengths about 10 years ago. It is paying dividends but they come slowly. The oil bust will provide the chance to see which city is actually better at being "recession proof." I did a spit take on that in the OKC video.
Denverbound, I could make myself come to terms with what you said up until this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBound41
In other words, Tulsa is fine being Tulsa, while OKC has over-inflated dreams of becoming Austin or Nashville, but that will never happen.
So let me ask you something, what makes you think that? All cities start somewhere.
This used to Austin in 1997
Do you think Austin thought it would become Austin back then?
This Austin today
From JoninATX
I don't care what factored into it, there is no reason Tulsa or OKC couldn't become the same thing.
This laughable notion that Tulsa somehow accepts that it is a medium sized city and wants to be that way and OKC will never become the big league city it desires to be is just a horrible philosophy for any city that wants to grow.
Tulsa wants to grow and if you think for a minute it doesn't you're kidding yourself. Look at what they have passed and what they are striving for in Vision 2025. They specifically say it designed to attract new economic growth. If you're a medium sized city what do you think happens when you keep growing?
As for OKC, I can agree with you we try to make ourselves look big league and at times it embarrassing. Now I'm not an expert on how to make cities big league, but I can tell you we WON'T get there by saying we're a small time town.
This will probably ***** a lot of people off, but comparing OKC and Tulsa is like comparing Lubbock and Midland. Both of those cities are two pieces of ***** and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter which one is better, they're both *****.
Now luckily in our cases, OKC and Tulsa are light years ahead of those cities and much larger.
At this point it boils down to two factors for me, which city is larger and growing faster. OKC is both of those things. With all of the things planned for OKC VS. Tulsa, it will soon become laughable and undeniable to say Tulsa is ahead of anything in the coming years.
I love OKC. I was born here and I plan to invest a lot of money here if ever make it big time in LA. I am not going to lie, there is a bit of bias in me wanting to see OKC benefit and Tulsa fail. At the same time, I realize if this state is going to kick these morons out of office, we need both cities to grow & become more powerful and work together to make change.
That is mostly just my opinion though and time will tell. I am more than excited to move out of OKC and Oklahoma in general and experience a true world class city.
OKC punches below its weight even for its size. Tulsa offers more and is 33% or so smaller. OKC compares more with places like Wichita, Chattanooga, or Tallahassee FL. It's a bit of an upgrade from Lubbock/Amarillo. However many of those things aren't that much better in other cities OKC's size than they are here. I have the opportunity to move to Jacksonville FL myself and while I believe it would be an upgrade compared to OKC, it will still fall short compared to major cities. If I would have known what I know now prior to moving here, I never would have come here even though it was a great job opportunity.
I know a guy who moved here from Jackson MS and loves it. It feels like a city to him. I have never met anybody who has moved here from a real city and was happy unless they were looking to settle down in a slower pace of life.
Jax shouldn't even compared to OKC IMO but to each their own considering the fact that it has lots to offer and is getting better each year. People just like using Jax as a punching bag because its hated on City data. In reality most people don't take internet forums to seriously enough to care about others opinions. I'm not saying whether or not OKC and Tulsa are bad places but I look at them as two different places historically, culturally, demographically compared to Jax. Also I think that was little unfair comparing Tally or even Chattanooga to OKC because they don't even have half the population Oklahoma City does. I understand you guys hate the place but you got give it credit somewhere as it cant be all bad.
Jax shouldn't even compared to OKC IMO but to each their own considering the fact that it has lots to offer and is getting better each year. People just like using Jax as a punching bag because its hated on City data. In reality most people don't take internet forums to seriously enough to care about others opinions. I'm not saying whether or not OKC and Tulsa are bad places but I look at them as two different places historically, culturally, demographically compared to Jax. Also I think that was little unfair comparing Tally or even Chattanooga to OKC because they don't even have half the population Oklahoma City does. I understand you guys hate the place but you got give it credit somewhere as it cant be all bad.
Jax is actually a really cool city, imo. Now, I only was able to spend a few days there, but from I saw, they are years ahead of OKC. They had some shopping centers with Louis Vuitton and other high-end luxury stores as well as great urban developments and nice highways. I also was really impressed by their mono-rail system.
As for population, I would say the two cities are peers, but as for cities and what they offer, you are right.
On top of that, what's the deal with the liquor laws? The politicians talk small government yet they force brewers to sell watered down beer and won't let you purchase real beer cold because they are worried about people chugging it in the liquor store parking lots. Prohibition was repealed in 1933. It's time for Oklahoma to get with the program.
The Biggest Lie in American Politics is (and it has been this way for decades) that the GOP/Republican Party are somehow small government.
To anyone even remotely aware, this is pure nonsense and BS.
The Republican Party jettisoned all truly conservative members and abandoned conservative principles about 4 decades ago.
What we have now instead are religious nutjob social/moral watchdog neocons who want to legislate how people live. What you can do on which days of the week, who you can marry, what you ingest, how you follow up on your personal reproductive choices, etc.
It's absolutely the most Huge Government, Big Brother, Nanny-State system it is possible to imagine, yet they claim to be for "small government." Horsepucky.
Unfortunately, the Democratic Party is no better. Both parties are bought and sold and owned by special interests (lobbyists, multinational CEOs, heads of global banks and energy concerns, defense contractors, etc., etc.) and the Dems are every bit as corrupt, incompetent and irresponsible with the economy as the Repubs.
OKC punches below its weight even for its size. Tulsa offers more and is 33% or so smaller. OKC compares more with places like Wichita, Chattanooga, or Tallahassee FL. It's a bit of an upgrade from Lubbock/Amarillo. However many of those things aren't that much better in other cities OKC's size than they are here. I have the opportunity to move to Jacksonville FL myself and while I believe it would be an upgrade compared to OKC, it will still fall short compared to major cities.
Again, this simply isn't true. I've lived in Lubbock and Tallahassee both and grew up 70 miles from Wichita. Have been to and through Amarillo a bunch. May be going there next week. Haven't been to Chattanooga. But of the four that I'm familiar with. Lubbock, Amarillo and Tallahassee are similar to each other but are at least two (probably 3) tiers down from OKC on any parameter. Wichita is at least one tier down.
OKC is a peer city with Ft. Worth, Tulsa, Omaha, in this part of the country along with Memphis, Salt Lake City and Charlotte and JVille being the cities that OKC is attempting to reach as far as similar status.
if you want to say it "punches below it's weight" that's fine with me. But no matter what you are into you can pretty much find it here or in Tulsa. It won't be the best or the greatest but it will be available at some level for you.
I realize that shopping issues appear to be a "thing" for you, but Dallas functions in that capacity for people around here. And I checked into the grocery places you mentioned. Krogers is the only one that has a presence anywhere at all around here. The others you mentioned are regional and don't have a presence in this area.
Tulsa is just fine with being Tulsa. Are there things that need improvement, yes, but we aren't going to chase down the latest "big thing" just to puff our chest. The new park is a prime example of Tulsa doing it's own thing. Our big wigs could have dumped all that money into a sports team like OKC but a park can't just up and leave if the economy tanks. A park doesn't make national news or buzz buzz social media (constructing one does). Once completed, does provide yet another natural space to spend the afternoon.
The city leadership decided to play to our strengths about 10 years ago. It is paying dividends but they come slowly. The oil bust will provide the chance to see which city is actually better at being "recession proof." I did a spit take on that in the OKC video.
Only in the bizzaro world of city data is a town that "puffs its chests" or "tries too hard" considered something bad but the city that's a-ok with the status quo something to be celebrated. Hey, gotta turn a negative into a positive!
Funny you mention the park as an example of Tulsa doing its own thing. OKC has been planning a central park just south of downtown since 2009 as part of MAPS3. Plans for a Gathering place didn't really begin in earnest until early 2012, and it only became a solid reality once Mr. Kaiser opened his wallet in 2013. Its cool though, I've see the plans for Tulsa's park it is quite nice. Its great that both cities will have badly needed central green space.
What is not great, however, is the recent census estimates that just came out. OKC's combined statistical area grew at a pace about DOUBLE what Tulsa's did. Tulsa also lags NW Arkansas, and by a hair, Kansas City. People can come on here and say "oh its not a big deal, we are okay with being ourselves and growing slowly, change is scary anyway, blah blah blah."
I would argue, to quote our vice president, that is a BIG F'N DEAL that one side of the state is becoming so lopsided with what its contributing to the state. Its a huge red flag that Tulsa is underperforming both demographically and economically. Its really not good for Tulsa or Oklahoma in the long run.
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