Seminole Town Center in Sanford, FL

[Downtown Steve]

Becky is spot on. I don't believe the outdoor mall (Waterford) is a long term replacement for the indoor mall. It offered some novelty and gave people the ability to park reasonably close to the story they need to go to without having to walk by other stores and those kiosks in the middle trying to get you to try a product. If nothing else, it shows our true disdain for the shopping mall experience when Floridians would sacrifice the A/C to not have to deal with it.

That said, these places all "know" what we want. Waterford and Seminole "Town Center" Fashion "Square." Oviedo "Marketplace" Winter Park "Village."

They were named correctly, but failed on the implementation. Lake Mary is an improvement, but while we're building more and more malls and more and more housing, why not continue to combine the two? Throw in a garage or two if you are afraid that access to parking will prohibit people from visiting.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Downtown Steve

Becky is spot on. I don't believe the outdoor mall (Waterford) is a long term replacement for the indoor mall. It offered some novelty and gave people the ability to park reasonably close to the story they need to go to without having to walk by other stores and those kiosks in the middle trying to get you to try a product. If nothing else, it shows our true disdain for the shopping mall experience when Floridians would sacrifice the A/C to not have to deal with it.

That said, these places all "know" what we want. Waterford and Seminole "Town Center" Fashion "Square." Oviedo "Marketplace" Winter Park "Village."

They were named correctly, but failed on the implementation. Lake Mary is an improvement, but while we're building more and more malls and more and more housing, why not continue to combine the two? Throw in a garage or two if you are afraid that access to parking will prohibit people from visiting.

Actually Colonial Town Park in Lake Mary does have housing attached. It's not a new concept and has been replicated in many other projects around the country. Here's another example: Life in Crocker Park || Crocker Park

[beckycat]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

I agree. Your link didn't come through/work but here's another couple examples:
About The Promenade Shops at Saucon Valley
Shop The Gateway - Dining, Entertainment and Shopping | Salt Lake City, Utah - The Gateway Is A Smart Choice (http://shopthegateway.com/smart-choice - broken link)

Exactly They could keep the same stores but have an outdoor setup that is more appealing.

[hgebel]

Maybe it's nostalgia from growing up in the 70's and 80's (born in 1970 when the two really beautiful malls in Delaware (Concord and Blue Hen) were brand new); but I greatly prefer the indoor mall experience. I love the convenience of the outdoor establishments, but I never associate them as being destinations in themselves, only of the individual stores. In fact, if pressed I couldn't name a single outdoor shopping area, even the ones I go to on a regular basis. I looked up all the ones mentioned in this thread on Google maps and when I located them I would be "oh, that's where such-and-such store is".

When I want to enjoy the outdoors in Florida I go to a theme park or a park. Indoor malls are an experience in themselves, even though I rarely buy anything there (not counting the AMC and Sbarros at West Oaks). West Oaks is less than a mile from my apartment and I go there several times a week just to walk around and enjoy it. I go to Millenia and Florida malls a couple of times a year for the same reason. It would never occur to me to just wonder around an outdoor mall; with the parking lots and heat coming off the tarmac there really isn't anything outdoorsy about them.

-Harry

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by hgebel

Indoor malls are an experience in themselves, even though I rarely buy anything there (not counting the AMC and Sbarros at West Oaks). West Oaks is less than a mile from my apartment and I go there several times a week just to walk around and enjoy it. I go to Millenia and Florida malls a couple of times a year for the same reason. It would never occur to me to just wonder around an outdoor mall; with the parking lots and heat coming off the tarmac there really isn't anything outdoorsy about them.

And there in a nutshell is why the traditional malls are largely failing. They're not public recreation areas, rather businesses with massive overhead that include rent, insurance, staffing, inventory, utilities and the list goes on. Outdoor centers have a customer base more inclined to enter a store to purchase versus those who want to wander around. The Mall at Millenia and Florida Mall survive thanks to tourists, and should that ever change having the locals hang out there won't provide any relief to the bottom line.

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

And there in a nutshell is why the traditional malls are largely failing. They're not public recreation areas, rather businesses with massive overhead that include rent, insurance, staffing, inventory, utilities and the list goes on. Outdoor centers have a customer base more inclined to enter a store to purchase versus those who want to wander around. The Mall at Millenia and Florida Mall survive thanks to tourists, and should that ever change having the locals hang out there won't provide any relief to the bottom line.

With the amount of lux/high-end stores in Millennia, I think it fills a niche, regionally speaking for the wealthier tourists and locals who need to get their LV, Nordstroms, or bloomingdales fix. I don't see it suffering even if the economy tanks. As they say, the "wealthy" are different from you and I

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by chopchop0

With the amount of lux/high-end stores in Millennia, I think it fills a niche, regionally speaking for the wealthier tourists and locals who need to get their LV, Nordstroms, or bloomingdales fix. I don't see it suffering even if the economy tanks. As they say, the "wealthy" are different from you and I

Oh I agree, but without the tourists they wouldn't be able to survive on the local upscale clientele. Not that the tourists are going anywhere but many are feasting on a weak dollar and favorable exchange rate.

[chopchop0]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Oh I agree, but without the tourists they wouldn't be able to survive on the local upscale clientele. Not that the tourists are going anywhere but many are feasting on a weak dollar and favorable exchange rate.

I used to think the same thing until I realized that the Orlando MSA has every high-end car dealer you can think of within it's borders (Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, Porsche, Audi, Lamborghini etc.) Tourists typically aren't coming here to buy those cars, so there must be a critical mass of locals that keep those high-end dealerships going. Those same people probably get their retail therapy fix at Millennia

[Downtown Steve]

I mean that Lake Mary is indeed an improvement with the attached housing. That makes it even better than Winter Park Village in my book. And a World of Beer never hurt anyone

While housing isn't crucial by any means, the paradigm shift that could save some indoor and outdoor malls is how they view themselves as a public space. Sure, they don't make money off someone who isn't buying something - but they don't make money off people who never enter the mall in the first place because they can get the same "here's my money, thanks for the item" exchange by purchasing online or at Walmart.

Just about all indoor malls and many outdoor malls do not encourage lingering. You might have some benches and fake plants - but they really just do enough to give a person a chance to rest their legs before shopping some more. There doesn't seem to be any real thought or design put into it versus let's say Park Avenue. Someone who lingers at Park Ave. is not out of place. Someone who is at the mall without a shopping agenda is considered a "mall rat" or a "mall walker" with good reason - it's not a place designed to hang out.

Let's be honest - most of the indoor malls are not going to make it. But there are opportunities for some to repurpose themselves and Fashion Square just might be one that pulls it off.

The outdoor ones, on the other hand, are SO CLOSE to being there. They already have the super wide sidewalks, many have arcades of some sort which is great for beating the Florida heat. Usually the exess parking kills the environment but that wouldn't be hard to fix by incorporated a more formal street grid where the main driving lanes already are, and replacing some of the large parking lots with places for people to hang out and adding some of that parking back in through parallel or angled parking along the newly created streets. This could potentially make something like an under-performing Colonial Plaza (Orlando) into something more valuable like Colonial Town Park (Lake Mary) without having to change much about the buildings themselves.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Downtown Steve

The outdoor ones, on the other hand, are SO CLOSE to being there. They already have the super wide sidewalks, many have arcades of some sort which is great for beating the Florida heat. Usually the exess parking kills the environment but that wouldn't be hard to fix by incorporated a more formal street grid where the main driving lanes already are, and replacing some of the large parking lots with places for people to hang out and adding some of that parking back in through parallel or angled parking along the newly created streets. This could potentially make something like an under-performing Colonial Plaza (Orlando) into something more valuable like Colonial Town Park (Lake Mary) without having to change much about the buildings themselves.

I agree that some of the outdoor ones are so close to being there. To me, Waterford Lakes is a prime example as it's proportion of asphalt parking lot to structure is way out of whack and to me defeats what looks to have been designed as a more pedestrian-friendly venue. It has some decent stores but to me is completely charmless from a pedestrian aspect. Sadly, as a newer development I don't see Waterford Lakes being redesigned anytime soon into something more pedestrian friendly, though as you point out Colonial Plaza might be a good venue, if not a tear-down/remodel of a failing mall like Seminole Towne or Fashion Square. I would think the success of some remodeled centers like the former Winter Park Mall (now Winter Park Village) might influence property management companies to try something similar with their failing properties.