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Hahahahaha. This hasn't been a debate in pages and pages. This is one person pontificating about what she values and pretending that the one study cited justifies all of her opinions, rather than one or two points of her premise.
Scientists know how to report their subjective opinion, how to back up their opinion with evidence, and how to report the accurate (including limitations) of research conclusions. Scientists do not cite one study and then make multiple logical leaps from that evidence and claim the resulting argument is supported by evidence. Scientists also address rather than ignore calls for further evidence and counter arguments with evidence, not head-smacks and condescension.
You have to show it actually does matter in a debate. You have to prove your point.
Multiple people have shown in DOES matter. Multiple people have debated this topic. Multiple people have proved their points.
For reasons I cannot understand you seem to be dead set on being right while the rest us us are clueless morons. (I'm getting this from all the s you use.)
It's truly, truly hopeless to even attempt to have any type of a debate with you. You ignore every single person who refutes your stance.
Calgon! Take me awaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy!!!
Don't bother to me I'll do it myself and save you the trouble.
and we take pride in knowing that we've improved our children's lives.
Honestly, I can see deciding to work because you want to live in a certain neighborhood, or send you kids to a certain school, or to just plain not have to worry about money. I cannot see deciding to work because a study said there is a correlation between income and kids somehow turning out "better."
I can't believe you still think you are "winning." No one is winning, we simply value different things.
What is your evidence that you improved your children's lives? My evidence is the SES improvement and research that supports that improving SES improves outcomes. What is your evidence?
I never said I decided to work because a study said I should. I knew SES mattered long before I read a study saying so. It's rather obvious. Which is why they control for SES in studies. Once you know something matters, you control for it in subsequent studies so you don't muddy the water.
This isn't a debate about what we like. There is nothing to debate there. The debate lies in what makes a measureable difference. Since SES does and many WM's improve their childrn's SES, they can show that what they do actually does improve their children's lives.
Scientists know how to report their subjective opinion, how to back up their opinion with evidence, and how to report the accurate (including limitations) of research conclusions. Scientists do not cite one study and then make multiple logical leaps from that evidence and claim the resulting argument is supported by evidence.
I'd like to note this is also a journalistic standard. I keep feeling like I'm meeting Deep Throat in a parking garage somewhere and all he'll give me is deep background. It's not enough.
What is your evidence that you improved your children's lives? My evidence is the SES improvement and research that supports that improving SES improves outcomes. What is your evidence?
Gah! What outcomes??? Education? Future earnings? What about happiness? Emotional security? Self confidence? Relationship with parents and ability to create healthy relationships/families of their own? Lack of mental issues, depression, stress, addictions?? Are all of these and many many more factors that make up this complex thing we call life accounted for in the study? You've never met people from rich, educated, upper class families who are deeply unhappy, depressed, suicidal, addicted? Believe me, there's plenty. I get that you're a chemistry teacher, but life isn't an exact science! There's no formula for happiness or success or a good life,, you can't quantify everything .
Multiple people have shown in DOES matter. Multiple people have debated this topic. Multiple people have proved their points.
For reasons I cannot understand you seem to be dead set on being right while the rest us us are clueless morons. (I'm getting this from all the s you use.)
It's truly, truly hopeless to even attempt to have any type of a debate with you. You ignore every single person who refutes your stance.
Calgon! Take me awaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy!!!
Don't bother to me I'll do it myself and save you the trouble.
I haven't seen one shred of evidence that SAH matters in this thread. Just lots of people repeating that it matters to them but that and $2.25 will buy you a cup of coffee..... If something is better, you can show it's better. There's nothing to debate if you can't prove your point.
Gah! What outcomes??? Education? Future earnings? What about happiness? Emotional security? Self confidence? Relationship with parents and ability to create healthy relationships/families of their own? Lack of mental issues, depression, stress, addictions?? Are all of these and many many more factors that make up this complex thing we call life accounted for in the study? You've never met people from rich, educated, upper class families who are deeply unhappy, depressed, suicidal, addicted? Believe me, there's plenty. I get that you're a chemistry teacher, but life isn't an exact science! There's no formula for happiness or success or a good life,, you can't quantify everything .
Are relationships dependent on our parents working status? Is there more mental illness if someone doesn't work? Depression? Addiction? I don't think anything you've mentioned here has been shown to be dependent on our parents working status or even our own working status. While there is more mental illness among the unemployed, that's because the mentally ill often can't hold down jobs.
Are relationships dependent on our parents working status? Is there more mental illness if someone doesn't work? Depression? Addiction? I don't think anything you've mentioned here has been shown to be dependent on our parents working stutus.
No, that wasn't my point, my point was to refute your conviction that SES matters more than anything else, because it doesn't, and that a healthy family environment where people make the choices that make them happy, be it working or sah or anything else, does matter, and that's common sense that doesn't need a study to back it up. My point is that SES is not by any means protection from your children growing up screwed up and unhappy. Lots of things play into this, and SES is not a major one.
I haven't seen one shred of evidence that SAH matters in this thread. Just lots of people repeating that it matters to them but that and $2.25 will buy you a cup of coffee..... If something is better, you can show it's better. There's nothing to debate if you can't prove your point.
And you don't have a point to prove either... I just read a post of yours saying you wish you had beaten your daughter when you had the chance, since she is a "monster" now, has no empathy for others and is completely selfish. I've given you the benefit of the doubt (okay, not really, but I've tried to understand where you're coming from) until I read that post. A parent who says that has no business telling others how to parent or how awful their kids are going to turn out if they SAHM. Perhaps your daughter could've benefitted from you staying at home...
What is your evidence that you improved your children's lives? My evidence is the SES improvement and research that supports that improving SES improves outcomes. What is your evidence?
You are taking extrapolation to an intellectually DISHONEST degree. Her direct anecdotal evidence for HER children is more applicable in this situation than your "research". You should know better than to use a general population study to make a determination about an individual.
Quote:
I never said I decided to work because a study said I should. I knew SES mattered long before I read a study saying so. It's rather obvious. Which is why they control for SES in studies. Once you know something matters, you control for it in subsequent studies so you don't muddy the water.
This isn't a debate about what we like. There is nothing to debate there. The debate lies in what makes a measureable difference. Since SES does and many WM's improve their childrn's SES, they can show that what they do actually does improve their children's lives.
I am beginning to think you have ZERO training in research.
All research studies have an inherent LIMITED scope. This is even more true for sociology based studies due to the fact there are MANY, MANY factors that cannot be controlled for. This is ATTEMPTED to be cmpensated for with increased sample size but the very fact that studies are uncontrolled means you cannot use them to make predictions for individuals with ANY level of surety.
It is research 101 to remember that correlation is not causation. You have no PROOF AT ALL that SES is causal. Nothing. Not a single iota. SES correlates even more strongly with IQ, are you actually going to claim that it is causal?
I apologize on behalf of scientists who know what they are talking about, that Ivory keeps implying that SES is CAUSAL with regards to student achievement, it is not.
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s you use.) 
