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Well, see, here's the problem. You're mistaking "irritated" with "defensive". Nobody likes hearing their lives labeled as unimportant and their choices dismissed, whether they think the person doing so is a worthy debate opponent... or a complete dillweed.
I was told I was defensive. I guess insofar as I am defending a different pov, I guess I am. But why would I be defensive about a lifestyle that is not my own? While it had been, it no longer is. My guess is that the logical fallacy of the ad hom is all that is left for her.
Who cares if someone on the internet fails to value what you value? You know you value what you value. Rock on.
If I were to get irritated, the irritant would not be the judgmentalism that would irk me. It is the faulty logic yielding conclusions followed by the supercilious attitude. I would not mind the supercilious tone by itself. But if you are going to be arrogant and superior, for pete's sake make a decent argument.
I am a SAHM now, and in the past, have worked part-time and full-time. So in "modeling" terms, I guess I'm even more superior, since I have shown my girls they have choices. <g> This whole thing about equality is kind of silly, imo. A family works together to get things done. I'm not so much into showing my girls some silly "you have to work outside the home to have worth" argument. They can, if they choose to....but if they have an option to stay home, that is good too. And, for my family, it doesn't work for me to be a full time working mom. My dh travels most weeks and it's a lot of upheaval for my job and my family.
I mean, if we look at some other threads, I guess I could say having a relationship with my grandkids that live down the block might be more important to some people. Working outside the home in itself is not the only way to model values to your daughters.
I'm off to bed now...have to work in the morning so I don't have all day to play...
I'm, probably, not going to be on line until Thursday or Friday so this discussion will just have to go on without me. I have to put some long hours in this week. Tonight was the last night I could take some down time so I took it.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
With that, I'm signing off until, probably, the weekend. I'd like to stay and play (this is actually one of my favorite things to debate) but I have work to do. I'll check in later in the week and see if there's any reason I need to post. So I leave this to the WM supporters....for now...
This is the second time you said you were signing off because you have so much work to do, but yet you continued to post. I missed all these more recent posts because I was already in bed. I have 2 little people who wake up very very early in the morning that I must get up with. But I know, you work SO MUCH harder than I do.
Children don't see mommy doing one thing and daddy doing another as sharing responsibility. They see a division of labor. Daddy works, mommy doesn't. Mommy does most of the child care, daddy does little. To them, working for a living looks like a daddy thing to do and caring for children looks like a mommy thing to do. Even I don't see this as a sharing responsibility. How much of the wage earning do you "share" with your dh". How much of the child care does he "share" with you. I see it as dividing things up along traditional gender roles and it's, inherently, unequal. Do you really think your kids don't see it that way?
Separate jobs but they are equally important.
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Actually, I value equality not income but income has it's perks. If that means I earn an income, then I earn an income. I want to show my kids that both daddies and mommies work to support their kids, that both daddies and mommies care for kids, the house, etc, etc, etc... Yes, the income benefits my family and, by itself, would be enough to make working the right decision but that wasn't the deciding factor. It was what I'd be modeling for my children.
My husband earns an income and I don't. When he gets home from work he spends time with the kids (childcare) and he helps out around the house. The roles are not as split up in most families as you are trying to make them out to be. My kids also see a Mom and Dad who treat each other with respect. If anything, my older daughter sees me as the boss.
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What I don't get is the defense here. If SAH is so great, who cares if a WM thinks that it's great that studies show that her dd's will have more of a tendency to be self confident, to set higher goals and view themselves as more equal to men (this is the studies talking not me here so you can drop that I'm making this claim)? I would think that SAH was chosen for what it gives her kids. Why would she care what WOH gives mine? Does my choice being a good one make hers a lesser choice?
You are still over blowing the self confidence and the goals pieces out of proportion. The studies speak of this in relation to school and that's it. I am very happy with my role and would be happy if my daughters chose to be stay at home Moms or if they chose to work. As long as they are happy, I am happy. People are getting defensive because of your words. You put down stay at home Moms repeatedly with your choice of words and it's rude.
Children don't see mommy doing one thing and daddy doing another as sharing responsibility. They see a division of labor. Daddy works, mommy doesn't. Mommy does most of the child care, daddy does little. To them, working for a living looks like a daddy thing to do and caring for children looks like a mommy thing to do. Even I don't see this as a sharing responsibility. How much of the wage earning do you "share" with your dh". How much of the child care does he "share" with you. I see it as dividing things up along traditional gender roles and it's, inherently, unequal. Do you really think your kids don't see it that way?
O.K., tell me this: If what a SAHM does is so worthless and unequal to what Daddy does, then why oh why do day cares and nannies charge so much money to do what a SAHM does? And lets keep in mind that day cares and nannies are really only doing a portion of what Mommy does, as they don't normally do the cooking, cleaning, shopping, bills, etc. that a SAHM does in addition to caring for the children. Since it is so worthless, you must have gotten ripped off on your day care costs, day care should be free, right? I know you want to pat yourself on the back for sharing all the responsibilities with your DH, but what you and your DH are essentially doing is paying someone else to take on the responsibility of caring for your children during the day while you are at work. You're just delegating that responsibility to a third party, for a fee.
I can't really walk away quite yet, because I thought up of a few points about gender equality, while I couldn't sleep last night:
1. Are working women really equal to working men? For the most part women still get paid less than men for the same work. Jobs that are traditionally women's jobs pay less than jobs that are traditionally male jobs. The only job were men and women are really paid equally is the military and still there isn't equality, as men usually have the highly dangerous jobs and get paid hazardous duty pay. So really in the grand scheme of things, you are still not equal to a man.
2. Is gender equality necessarily a good thing? I am a woman, I am inherently different than a man. There are things that I am good at that that most men are not good at. There are things that men are good at that I am not good at. Just because I am not good at those things does not make me inferior to a man. A man wouldn't survive labor and delivery, because he is not built to. I could not carry a 150 pounds of meat to a cave, because I am not built to (sure with training I could, but most men are physiologically stronger than women).
3. Unless you point it out to them, children aren't going to know that women who stay at home are not equal to those that go to work. No child is going to inherently know that the mother who stays at home doesn't earn an income. Or that the mother that stays at home does things that are considered by others to be less valuable than the mother that works. As far as my kids are concerned, mommy is the only one who really works, because I am the one that they see working. Dad goes to this place, for all they know it could be a castle in fairy land and then sometimes he comes home at night (and most of the time he is deployed or TDY). For the most part my kids see me doing the car maintenance, me cleaning the house, me doing the lawn maintenance, me paying the bills, me driving them to and from school and therapy, me being the soccer coach, me cheering them on at sports, me taking them to practices, me doing the shopping, me doing the cooking, and me taking care of the family pets. And currently, they see me as the superior side of the equation, because I'm the one who does everything and provides everything. They don't see the nitty gritty details of our checkbook, where daddy is the one actually drawing the salary. And nor do they really care.
I can't really walk away quite yet, because I thought up of a few points about gender equality, while I couldn't sleep last night:
1. Are working women really equal to working men? For the most part women still get paid less than men for the same work. Jobs that are traditionally women's jobs pay less than jobs that are traditionally male jobs. The only job were men and women are really paid equally is the military and still there isn't equality, as men usually have the highly dangerous jobs and get paid hazardous duty pay. So really in the grand scheme of things, you are still not equal to a man.
2. Is gender equality necessarily a good thing?
YES.
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I am a woman, I am inherently different than a man. There are things that I am good at that that most men are not good at. There are things that men are good at that I am not good at.
Do not mistake sameness and equality as the poster to whom you respond is. Equality speaks to rights and responsibilities. I have the right to determine my own future and make my own decisions. When gender equality was not present, women did not have that right. Democracy and concensus in the home is the way gender equality it demonstrated in a family. In my opinion.
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3. Unless you point it out to them, children aren't going to know that women who stay at home are not equal to those that go to work.
Quite the opposite. If the family values the contribution of the mother, that is what will be modeled. That attitude will prevail. Limiting the value of a family contributor to income is short sighted at best. In IVORY'S family, the daughters are likely to catch Mom's attitude of the value of income. But that is more due to her attitude than the fact that she works.
YES.
Quite the opposite. If the family values the contribution of the mother, that is what will be modeled. That attitude will prevail. Limiting the value of a family contributor to income is short sighted at best. In IVORY'S family, the daughters are likely to catch Mom's attitude of the value of income. But that is more due to her attitude than the fact that she works.
That's my point. Attitude says it all. Heck my DH pays me a salary to stay at home, my kids think SAHM's are salaried positions.
You forget, you have posted many complaints about your children on this board before. Be very careful claiming to be the perfect mommy of the perfect children now!!!!
That's my point. Attitude says it all. Heck my DH pays me a salary to stay at home, my kids think SAHM's are salaried positions.
I think that is an odd way to look at. But as I mentioned above, I don't consider salary the main or only measure of value of work. But if it works for you, rock it.
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