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Vic, you seem like an intelligent person, so I'm guessing you know the difference between child abuse and spanking, and you're just being sarcastic, especially when I've differentiated between the two a number of times now quite clearly.
But just in case you really don't know, again...an abusive parent either does not know or does not care what the best method is for their child, and will use the most extreme method possible to vent their own anger, pain, frustration, or ignorance.
And again...a spanking parent has weighed the options, knows their child intimately, cares about their child deeply, has tried other methods without success, and will use the least possible amount of pain to get the point across. Are there some that go overboard, spank out of anger, etc? Of course. Are there some that go overboard with nonspanking, and allow their kids to just run wild, be disrespectul and rude, get high at home and live in mom's basement until their 50? Of course. Extremes can go either way.
And again, there is a BIG difference between spanking and child abuse. I really think it is an insult to real victims of child abuse to compare what they have been through to getting spanked. I have read numerous stories of child abuse, and I'm quite sure every one of those children would have gladly taken a "spank" over what they had to go through. There is no comparing the two at all.
Another beautifully written post and so very true. How horribly insulting to someone who suffered child abuse, to compare a spanking to what they suffered. Frankly, some parents are far more abusive in their treatment of children, without ever touching them at all!
Last edited by JustJulia; 04-26-2012 at 02:04 PM..
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50 years of dr spock, the prisons are bulging y generation more violent and unruly than ever b4.
This is laughable. As if the parents of violent criminals were reading and following dr. spock. I bet most of these parents never picked up a book other than to use it as something to throw at their child.
Vic, you seem like an intelligent person, so I'm guessing you know the difference between child abuse and spanking, and you're just being sarcastic, especially when I've differentiated between the two a number of times now quite clearly.
No, what I'm doing is asking you why the arguments made to defend spanking can't be made to defend child abuse. While I don't equate spanking and child abuse, I am equating the usefulness (0) of defenses given for both.
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Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
But just in case you really don't know, again...an abusive parent either does not know or does not care what the best method is for their child,
One could say the same for parents who spank, that they either do not know or care that the alternatives to spanking are better methods of discipline.
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Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
and will use the most extreme method possible to vent their own anger, pain, frustration, or ignorance.
Not all abusive parents employ the most extreme methods of abuse, though. And our speculations as to why abusive parents are abusive are of no greater use than our speculations as to why other parents spank.
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Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
And again...a spanking parent has weighed the options, knows their child intimately, cares about their child deeply, has tried other methods without success,
Not necessarily, and any abusive parent can make the same claims. And you can't disprove such claims any more than I can disprove that you have weighed all the options, know your child intimately, care about them deeply, and have tried other methods without success (If I had such interest in conjecture).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
and will use the least possible amount of pain to get the point across.
If I were to tell you, "NO pain is needed to get the point across", you would dismiss every word with the argument that only you can know what's best for your child. An abusive parent can tell you the same thing, word for word. And since your proposition is that only the parent can know their child and what discipline is best for them, you cannot argue without contradicting yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
Are there some that go overboard, spank out of anger, etc? Of course. Are there some that go overboard with nonspanking, and allow their kids to just run wild, be disrespectul and rude, get high at home and live in mom's basement until their 50? Of course. Extremes can go either way.
Well, sure. Of course, "non-spanking" and "non-disciplining" are two different things entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
And again, there is a BIG difference between spanking and child abuse. I really think it is an insult to real victims of child abuse to compare what they have been through to getting spanked. I have read numerous stories of child abuse, and I'm quite sure every one of those children would have gladly taken a "spank" over what they had to go through. There is no comparing the two at all.
Not comparing spanking with child abuse. Comparing the would-be justifications for each. This one is no different. I was spanked but a handful of times as a child (that I can remember) and looking back, I would've much rather NOT been spanked at all. Just because I wasn't abused in some severe way doesn't mean spanking was best or ideal.
So....is your compulsive need to argue your point.....to always feel like you're 100% correct, and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong...in spite of the fact that you're simply basing it on someone else's "opinion", which you happen to agree with....your parents' fault?...you know, because they spanked you and you didn't like it?
So....is your compulsive need to argue your point.....to always feel like you're 100% correct, and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong...in spite of the fact that you're simply basing it on someone else's "opinion", which you happen to agree with....your parents' fault?...you know, because they spanked you and you didn't like it?
Never said any of that. But my point is I'm at least basing my stance on more than an opinion. Though you may wish it wasn't, the mountain of scientific evidence against spanking is real, as is the relative lack of scientific evidence to contradict it, a reality you don't seem keen on addressing.
Now, it certainly may be your opinion that the collection of studies are all flawed (in spite of no scientific evidence to back you up, yet again). But empirical studies, mere opinion? I don't think so.
No, what I'm doing is asking you why the arguments made to defend spanking can't be made to defend child abuse. While I don't equate spanking and child abuse, I am equating the usefulness (0) of defenses given for both.
One could say the same for parents who spank, that they either do not know or care that the alternatives to spanking are better methods of discipline.
One could say the same for parents who don't spank also.
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Not all abusive parents employ the most extreme methods of abuse, though. And our speculations as to why abusive parents are abusive are of no greater use than our speculations as to why other parents spank.
Why speculate at all? Why not just let parents take the responsibility of being parents themselves, and make their own decisions for what's best for their family? Basically, ALL speculations are useless, including speculations as to why parents don't spank.
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Not necessarily, and any abusive parent can make the same claims. And you can't disprove such claims any more than I can disprove that you have weighed all the options, know your child intimately, care about them deeply, and have tried other methods without success (If I had such interest in conjecture).
I can't disprove that your lack of spanking isn't neglect, laziness, or just not giving a damn. The only way that can and should become a concern of mine is if your kids are running wild, unsupervised, unclothed and unfed, etc. The same goes for spanking parents...it shouldn't be a concern unless there are physical signs of neglect or abuse.
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If I were to tell you, "NO pain is needed to get the point across", you would dismiss every word with the argument that only you can know what's best for your child. An abusive parent can tell you the same thing, word for word. And since your proposition is that only the parent can know their child and what discipline is best for them, you cannot argue without contradicting yourself.
If you were to tell me that, you may be right. You may be wrong. How do you know? How are you so sure about a child, a family that you don't know, have never seen? An abusive parent could certainly tell me the same thing, and would have a point, because how would I know if they were abusive when I had never seen them, met them, seen their child? Now if I actually SAW their child beaten, bruised, sad and broken, then maybe I would have a leg to stand on as far as advising them on their situation. Of course not ALL parents are going to do what is best for their child, whether they spank or not.
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Well, sure. Of course, "non-spanking" and "non-disciplining" are two different things entirely.
Vic, exactly. Just like "abuse" and "spanking" are two different things entirely. Do you feel like, as a nonspanking parent, you should have to justify and defend your decision? Do you feel like, because you don't spank, you should be equated with not disciplining at all? Of course you wouldn't, just as parents who spank don't want to be equated with abusing their child.
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Not comparing spanking with child abuse. Comparing the would-be justifications for each. This one is no different. I was spanked but a handful of times as a child (that I can remember) and looking back, I would've much rather NOT been spanked at all. Just because I wasn't abused in some severe way doesn't mean spanking was best or ideal.
We may not know what the best method is except in hindsight. Right now, we do the best we can with what we know. For the record, I DON'T spank my child, but because spanking is not necessary. She's very sensitive, and a spanking would devastate her emotionally. I find other methods work better, and leave her natural personality intact. If I had a different kind of child, which I have known, that are more stubborn, defiant, or who pushed limits more, I wouldn't rule spanking out. It depends on the situation, the child, the method, and other things for me. It's not just simple black or white. I respect your opinion, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
This is laughable. As if the parents of violent criminals were reading and following dr. spock. I bet most of these parents never picked up a book other than to use it as something to throw at their child.
To all my spanker advocates, just remember that non-spankers think they are better than you and they know how to raise your kids. It isn't worth the arguement.
Why speculate at all? Why not just let parents take the responsibility of being parents themselves, and make their own decisions for what's best for their family? Basically, ALL speculations are useless, including speculations as to why parents don't spank.
That mean you're going to retract the way in which you compared abusive parents with parents who spank? And if so, that mean you're willing to give it another try?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
I can't disprove that your lack of spanking isn't neglect, laziness, or just not giving a damn. The only way that can and should become a concern of mine is if your kids are running wild, unsupervised, unclothed and unfed, etc. The same goes for spanking parents...it shouldn't be a concern unless there are physical signs of neglect or abuse.
Not true. If there existed one (and especially if there existed many) objective studies on the lack of spanking which found a correlation between not spanking and an increase in children running wild unsupervised, unclothed, and unfed, it would be your moral duty to speak out against it. To help prevent it from ever happening. The reason other parents spanking their children is a concern to me is that continuous waves of research suggest that spanking increases aggression (among other things harmful to society).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
An abusive parent could certainly tell me the same thing, and would have a point, because how would I know if they were abusive when I had never seen them, met them, seen their child? Now if I actually SAW their child beaten, bruised, sad and broken, then maybe I would have a leg to stand on as far as advising them on their situation.
No, imagine that you see a parent slap their three year old in the face (assuming we agree this is not okay in any situation). No bones are broken, there's no blood, and the child doesn't seem any more sad about it than a child who's just been spanked. You have the exact same "leg to stand on" to urge them not to do this as I have to urge you not to spank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
Do you feel like, as a nonspanking parent, you should have to justify and defend your decision?
Absolutely. My first defense would be to ask for evidence or proof that not spanking your child is associated with any sort of negative consequence. We would go from there, but I would never dismiss the questioning with "Mind your own business!" or anything of that nature.
I proclaim this horse dead (for now). I'm sure this will be a hot topic again in the future.
Last edited by JustJulia; 04-26-2012 at 04:29 PM..
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