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"Music can both establish and destroy morality. For no path is more open to the soul for the formation thereof than through the ears. Therefore when the rhythms and modes have penetrated even to the soul through these organs, it cannot be doubted that they affect the soul with their own character and conform it to themselves." - Boethius
Did you hear about the religious fundamentalists who wanted to ban people having sex while standing up because it might lead to dancing?
This is so naive. Music is literally a vibration - and music of a "low vibration," will result in consciousness of a low vibration. Read David Hawkins for information (Power vs. Force).
How confusing would it be to a child, to hear raunchy, violent, drug oriented lyrics and then have parents who are teaching them different values? When they get into middle school and high school, what do you think is more influential - the popular culture or parents? Music or parents?
It's not naive at all. How do you explain the majority of kids who listen to all kinds of music and watch all kinds of TV and don't do anything crazy? It's not because they were sheltered from popular culture, it's because they know better. Most kids are smart enough to know what's entertainment and what's reality. I think people use popular culture as a scapegoat for the failings of their children and their own parenting.
And I've listened to plenty of raunchy, violent, and drug orientated lyrics, and was never confused, have never abused drugs or alcohol, sold drugs, been incarcerated, shot anybody. Why? Because what I was listening to was JUST A SONG and I had real life examples in my everyday life to show me that it was just a song. By middle and high school, if a kid can't tell the difference, they have bigger problems going on than pop culture.
This is so naive. Music is literally a vibration - and music of a "low vibration," will result in consciousness of a low vibration. Read David Hawkins for information (Power vs. Force).
How confusing would it be to a child, to hear raunchy, violent, drug oriented lyrics and then have parents who are teaching them different values? When they get into middle school and high school, what do you think is more influential - the popular culture or parents? Music or parents?
"According to a report by the Arts Censorship Project of the American Civil Liberties Union in New York, a direct link between antisocial behavior and the exposure to the content of any form of artistic expression has never been scientifically established."
I think there's a huge difference between suggestive lyrics and vulgar or dangerous lyrics (such as the many "songs" promoting hard core drug use, gang affiliation, debasement of women, etc. ) the current genre (and perhaps 20 or so year's of hard core rap) has not been good for society . . .
How so? Statistically all of the things you are complaining about were on the decline during the "heyday" of such genres and many of them are now at much lower levels then they were 20 years ago.
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Much of the MUSIC of the sixties was insprirational, thought-provoking, and uplifting, not to mention, actually MUSICAL . . .
lol, I love music from the 1960's, but the main feature was simplistic beats and arrangements that formed clever "hooks" and were backed by snappy lyrics. Some of the biggest hits from the 1960's were The Twist, Louie Louie, Sugar Sugar, Satisfaction, Mrs. Robinson, Daydream Believer, I Get Around, Wild Thing, The Wanderer, Lion Sleeps Tonight, Loco-Motion, My Boyfriend's Back, Runaround Sue, etc.
These are all inspirational, thought-provoking and uplifting? At least as far as I am imganing you want to use those words? That isn't even getting into songs like Paint It Black, Ring of Fire, Light My Fire, Purple Haze and I Walk the Line. All fantastic songs, but hardly "inspirational" in the way you imply, certainly thought provoking though and quite the horror to conservative parents of the time.
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Suggesting that kids sell crack cocaine, beat "their women," and chug cough syrup has no redeeming value (and I cannot even imagine why this would appeal to anyone, but it does). And it corrupts. Parents who allow their kids to listen to this "music" are probably addicts/alcoholics or have some serious mental health issues that would cause them to be in such severe denial that these words and messages would be thought to have no negative impact.
I have incredibly eclectic taste in music. From Mozart, Orf and Bocelli to Metallica, Nirvana and Green Day to Snoop Dogg, Eminimen and Notorious B.I.G. to Kesha, GaGa and Madonna. I listened to all of it growing up. I have never sold crack cocaine, beat a woman or chugged cough syrup. My parents were not addicts/alcoholics nor did they have any mental health issues. My father was career Army and my mother is in education. They gave me a grounding in real values and provided me guidance for life. There was nothing in that music for me beyond an enjoyment of the music and actually looking beyond the lyrics to see the deeper meaning and message.
In the words of Eminem...
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So to the parents of America, I am the derringer aimed at little Erica, to attack her
Character, the ringleader of this circus of worthless pawns, sent to lead the march right up to
The steps of congress, and **** on the lawns of the White House, to burn the casket and replace
It with a parental advisory sticker, to spit liquor in the faces of in this democracy of
Hypocrisy, **** you Ms. Cheney, **** you Tipper Gore, **** you with the freest of speech this
Divided states of embarrassment will allow me to have, **** you,
He, hahaha, I'm just playin' America, you know I love you...
That by the way is a great song if you take the time to actually hear what he's saying.
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Originally Posted by imcurious
How confusing would it be to a child, to hear raunchy, violent, drug oriented lyrics and then have parents who are teaching them different values? When they get into middle school and high school, what do you think is more influential - the popular culture or parents? Music or parents?
Parents. Kids who get sucked into the negative lyrics of music are doing it because it speaks to them and fills a void that is often caused by tragedy or parental neglect. If the negative aspects of the music speak to you and provide meaning, it's only because it is an affirmation of how you already feel and think.
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
In all of this, unless I am missing something, I see no acknowledgement that pop culture poses any danger to children or young people whatsoever. It's just there, its content is morally neutral, and any way that parents decide to handle it is just as good as another, as long as children aren't sheltered too much. I hope I haven't mischaracterized your views in this summary.
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
I always appreciate the intelligence and civility of your posts. Truly, I do, and I thank you for it. But isn't it apparent to you that we really don't have any common ground upon which to base further discussion? By common ground I don't mean religion necessarily, but at least a belief in objective morality of some kind, in the possibility of moral truth and error, and in man's obligation to conform his life to that truth. Without this foundation we'll just be talking past each other, and the best we can hope for is to live separate lives with high fences.
You can't have a concept of moral absolutism and truth absent religion. Only religion provides a black and white "good" vs. "evil" standard for the world that man must conform to. Hence why so many people find solace in religion, it eliminates the need to think critically.
When I was a kid I listened to Dead Kennedys, the Buzzcocks, Sex Pistols, etc. I love Eminem even now, my daughter and I listen to Nicki Minaj and other stuff. My parents were teachers, I was a goody-goody kid, and went on the get two advanced degrees. I also read some sexually explicit books as a teen (Portnoy's Complaint being one), and gee, never went out and prostituted myself.
My parents did not censor my music or reading and I appreciate that. If I had questions, I asked them and we discussed whatever it was. Now, I don't let my DD watch certain movies or shows yet, but she's only 12. Music on the other hand, no, I don't censor it.
In all of this, unless I am missing something, I see no acknowledgement that pop culture poses any danger to children or young people whatsoever. It's just there, its content is morally neutral, and any way that parents decide to handle it is just as good as another, as long as children aren't sheltered too much. I hope I haven't mischaracterized your views in this summary.
I always appreciate the intelligence and civility of your posts. Truly, I do, and I thank you for it. But isn't it apparent to you that we really don't have any common ground upon which to base further discussion? By common ground I don't mean religion necessarily, but at least a belief in objective morality of some kind, in the possibility of moral truth and error, and in man's obligation to conform his life to that truth. Without this foundation we'll just be talking past each other, and the best we can hope for is to live separate lives with high fences.
Thank you for the compliment. I believe that indeed you have mischaracterized. I actually posited no morality position, neutral, positive or negative re: pop culture. I am not sure if you are taking away from my last post that I don't believe in objective morality, although that is how I am reading your post. I do not believe in moral relativism. I do believe that some of the elements of pop culture that I am reading your posts as described as "evil" contain elements of subjectivity in the evaluation. I disagree that elements of pop culture are inherently evil and that they hold the level of sway over children that you posit. I don't think it is about sheltering or not - I think it is about teaching children how to think, how to evaluate, and how to make choices that line up with their values. That has been demonstrated time and again to have positive effects on behavior, regardless of the other influences (including negative influences). I also think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I, as always, am happy to agree to disgree. I think we do see the relative causal relationship between pop culture and behavior quite differently. No high fence needed on my side, I'm happy to wave at you past the garden.
Isn't pop culture responsible for all the NOTW car stickers and T-shirts, and also those old WWJD wristbands?
There are good and bad aspects of just about anything. For example, I have heard some very Satanic rock music, but have also heard some very uplifting Christian rock music - not all rock music is bad. I have seen some very Christ-like churches, and some quite evil organized churches - not all organized religion is good.
You cannot paint everything with one stroke of the brush.
I think at the base of this argument are world views - the people who don't think pop culture has any effect on children, must believe children are like Tephlon and don't absorb anything from the environment.
My personal belief is that we live in a world guided by quantum physics - and at it's base, quantum physics posits that everything is connected in a system and one thing affects another - it would be impossible, from this scientific perspective, to dismiss the affects of anything on anything else . . .it is just a given . . .look to "The Butterfly Affect" for more information on how one thing affects another.
If you listened to vulgar, drug-promoting, woman-debasing "music" as a youth, it's hard to imagine that the messages did not get into your psyche and shape your beliefs . . . how do you reconcile the promotion of drug usage, cop killing, female debasing, drug selling, base materialism, violence, the glorification of prison, et al with "kinder, gentler" beliefs and values of your parents? Please explain how you sorted this all out, if you did . . . how did you make sense of the images you saw of angry black men defiling women, etc.? What did you make of that?
I think it is extremely simplistic to say that you listened to (and watched) these extremely negative images and that they had no affect on you, what-so-ever.
Please read "Power vs. Force," and get back to me with your views on how this could have been possible.
I think at the base of this argument are world views - the people who don't think pop culture has any effect on children, must believe children are like Tephlon and don't absorb anything from the environment.
Fixing nearly unreadable, obnoxious font choice...
I wonder whose argument you are referring to since you don't quote anyone, and I see no one in this thread saying that.
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