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Yes, it is the crux of the matter. The child and the adult need help in the matter. But in the time it takes a shy, unassertive parent to go to assertiveness training or somehow acquire the skills to stand up for themselves and their child, the child could be seriously injured, or at the very least, extremely miserable on a daily basis.
Yes, yes, yes, on the confidence. But some kids don't have confidence in themselves or their parents (with good reason) and they should not have to suffer because they are weak or lacking self-preservation skills.
Everyone who has posted on here that they were bullied til they had enough and fought back is missing the point. Some kids cannot fight back. I'm good friends with a family with a fairly high-functioning autistic son. He's bright, but has some communication issues, flaps sometimes and has an odd forced speech pattern. He was bullied in middle school, they reported it, the administration chalked it up to "joking around." At this point he'd been shoved and had things knocked out of his hands. That child is not capable of fighting back. He is uncoordinated (didn't learn to ride a bike til he was about 12 and went to a special summer camp) and has poor muscle tone, which is a characteristic of some autistic children. Plus, he didn't understand social cues and didn't understand when he was "annoying" kids with his repetitive speech. His parents pulled him out of school and are home-schooling him, at least for middle school, and I would have done the same thing. The alternative was to let him go to school and be a punching bag for stupid middle school brats.
Bullies pick on the vulnerable. If you were bullied and fought back, it stopped for you, but you can be sure they moved on to someone else. In an ideal world, everyone would be strong and capable and brave, but we don't live in an ideal world. But that does not mean that the weak and wimpy among us should be terrorized.
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Originally Posted by EvilCookie
This this this. Bravo!! This is what I kept trying to get across.
There are some kids out there who can't fight, there are some who don't want to fight. They should have the right to not have to do it, just like adults do.
I admit it, I'm biased here. I have a phobia of pain and physical violence, I really do. As a parent, I wouldn't blink at having to go and verbally dish it out with administration, to call on police, media, whatever it takes. Call it passive aggressive. But both when I was a child and now, I balk at the prospect of physical pain, it terrifies me. Now I don't know if that's a genetic failing or a mental issue, I do know my parents tried very hard to get me to toughen up and defend myself when I was a child; I was put into karate lessons, and my dad, who was into martial arts when was younger, even did those really tough bootcamp-style sessions with me at home, trying to get me to toughen up and not be afraid of pain, building strength, teaching to punch and kick. Didn't help, didn't do a thing. I still simply could not fathom raising a hand against a bully. Just couldn't do it. Not to mention, I abhored all this stuff. I was a weak little girly girl and I liked it that way, I wanted to be left alone so I can read my books and play with dolls, I didn't want to learn to hit, and I sure as hell didn't want to risk aggravating the bully so they'd escalate it and I'd get hurt. 'Taking' the minor picking and insults (thankfully it never really escalated to more than that) was endlessly preferable to me than getting in a physical fight. Some people are just like that. It's not a fatal character flaw, and it shouldn't be viewed as such.
There exists a dual dependency in bullying between the bully and their victim. Both play a role in what occurs between them. Just as there are profiles and conditions that result in the creation of a bully, so there are profiles and conditions that result in the creation of a victim of bullying. Very few kids ever become targets of systemic bullying, but those who do all share very similar traits related to a fear of conflict and social awkwardness.
Everyone has the right to live their life as they see fit and be in a bully free environment. However, I think we would all admit that such a goal while admirable is a bit utopian. We should do everything we can to discourage and punish bullying, but at the same time we must recognize that we can only truly control one half of the duality and that is in ensuring that we do not become victims.
You both are right that some people are incapable of preventing themselves from becoming the victim, but that doesn't mean that for the vast majority of people not being the victim is a very real and attainable goal. For those who are in a position of being a perpetual victim, then you have to do what you have to do.
The teachers union puts these add's out about bulling and act like their doing something about it, when in reality it's just an add campaign to try and cover their butt's.. It's a sham. Bulling is going strong in most schools and will continue to do so..
Maybe cut the their pay and we will see some change..until then, nothing will change..Just more smoke and mirrors..Children
shooting up schools and killing themselves. What a mess the public school system is, and yet on every political campaign we hear "more money for education" what a joke. The median average for a public school teacher is 51,000 a year. Not bad for
working 9 months out of the year with all the best benefits...yet even with their increased pay that they demand year after year our students our US students are falling behind to other industrialized countries..I wonder what the pay is for the teachers countries??
Bulling will continue and get worse, not better. The public school system is failing and will only get worse..
Yes there are a few good teachers, but the system is broken.. I blame PC..
It is not the job of a teacher to deal with bullies. The teachers already have enough to handle. That job is the responsibility of administrators, who far out-earn teachers.
I like that you are quoting Marano, author of "Nation of Wimps". If you went beyond the basic quote, you would know that her intent is to foster and teach social skills so that children can resolve their own conflicts and not fall into the cycle of victimization.
A snippet from a very long article written by Hara in Psychology Today. This piece ends the dissertation on the "profile of the victim" and how they become one...
This ties into her earlier much more famous statements made in "A Nation of Wimps" where she attacks overprotective and overinvolved parenting as leaving children bereft of social and self coping skills. She has made the connection between what is seen as an increase in bullying and a culture of overprotective parenting.
Just as I said, the counter to the statement that one must defend themselves in the initial encounter and be equipped to do so is to then run to the extreme and invent a scenario where defending oneself is "impossible". In every statement I have made and advice I gave on this topic, I immediately followed the "defense against physical attack" by reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities. The girl, after kicking the attacker should immediately report what happened to the prinicipal which then triggers the parents involvement to ensure the matter is resolved.
For the record, I think that the boys are more likely to continue to harass and go to the extreme of sexually assaulting the girl who cowers to their intimidation. I think they are less likely to go after the girl who had the wherewithal and courage to physically defend herself. Bullies prey on the weak and socially awkward...psychology 101 per the authors and researchers above.
Her quote was used on an article on how to deal with bullies. I chose to add part of another article I thought to be helpful. I am sorry you didn't feel it was. Please feel free to ignore my posts from here on out if they are not useful to you. I am sorry I didn't post the article I was not sure it was allowed. You can google for it if you like. I chose to offer my thoughts and advice like others have. If my posts help one person then great. Yes, for the record I have read your opinions. We agree on some. Have a good night.
Her quote was used on an article on how to deal with bullies. I chose to add part of another article I thought to be helpful. I am sorry you didn't feel it was. Please feel free to ignore my posts from here on out if they are not useful to you. I am sorry I didn't post the article I was not sure it was allowed. You can google for it if you like. I chose to offer my thoughts and advice like others have. If my posts help one person then great. Have a good night.
I liked the quote from Hara, I just thought a more thorough examination of her position had value to the thread given the topic and the direction of the conversation. The quote needed context and I provided it. There is nothing to be sorry about.
On the some kids cannot fight back, IT is true some would not know HOW to fight back but they have self preservation and something will happen at that age, little ones just cry or scream if hurt, but I did have an special needs grandson,, the LOVE of my life_ he stayed a baby until he went home to God at 7 yrs old, and trust me they mishandled him he would swing o scream or wave his hands all around. alert -alert- somethign is wrong, the gal slapped the boy she is 1/2 way there but sounds like mom is concerend that SHE did the wrong thing? the heck with that- so she gets 2 days suspension- well she has a right to defend. and MOm needs to back HER. just saw the movie ms lovelace,,, came home to mom crying moms sends her back--- go be a good wife.., obey,,, that thinking has GOT to GO. you love self first-- NO abuse tolerated of any type. ! and for those angels,,, honey i was grama BEAR with that little soul... fought Drs. nurses and the IRS- I stood up for him.
The OP has not given any indication that her DD is one of the extremely tiny minority that cannot fight back. Giving extreme examples does not help the OP. Her DD sounds like a regular kid who can fight back so she needs to learn how to do so. Fighting back does not always mean physically fighting.
You are right when you say that bullies pick on the vulnerable. That is why people who can act in ways that make them seem less vulnerable should do so.
You're absolutely correct and I apologize for getting off track.
And yes, children should be taught to stand up for themselves. But there needs to be contingency plan when they are unable or unwilling to do so.
There exists a dual dependency in bullying between the bully and their victim. Both play a role in what occurs between them. Just as there are profiles and conditions that result in the creation of a bully, so there are profiles and conditions that result in the creation of a victim of bullying. Very few kids ever become targets of systemic bullying, but those who do all share very similar traits related to a fear of conflict and social awkwardness.
Everyone has the right to live their life as they see fit and be in a bully free environment. However, I think we would all admit that such a goal while admirable is a bit utopian. We should do everything we can to discourage and punish bullying, but at the same time we must recognize that we can only truly control one half of the duality and that is in ensuring that we do not become victims.
You both are right that some people are incapable of preventing themselves from becoming the victim, but that doesn't mean that for the vast majority of people not being the victim is a very real and attainable goal. For those who are in a position of being a perpetual victim, then you have to do what you have to do.
I basically agree with you. But it aggravates me when I see a knee-jerk reaction (not saying you gave one) that bullying isn't a problem or all a kid needs to do is hit back. In the real world, it's not always that simple.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, because I've posted this before, if you're interested in the topic of bullying, you owe it to yourself to watch the documentary "Bully." It's available on Netflix. There you can see the dynamics play out pretty clearly.
We're vacillating between the discusion of bullying theory and this exact incident for which we have woefully little information and background.
Well no. Not really. The POINT is that there is not "bullying theory". Action is determined BY the incident. There are too many variables to what constitutes bullying to assert a specific theory.
Well no. Not really. The POINT is that there is not "bullying theory". Action is determined BY the incident. There are too many variables to what constitutes bullying to assert a specific theory.
Yet, there are plenty of psychologists and educators doing just that. If I wanted to get pedantic I would point out that the study and planning of what are appropriate actions in regards to incidents is essentially engaging in a discussion of "bullying theory". Since we don't like that, then I'll rephrase...
We (the general participants in the thread) were vacillating between the discussion of how to handle this particular incident and a general discussion of bullying.
My point for even mentioning that is my observance that you were replying to the comments I was making in regards to the "general" portion and applying them to the particular "incident". That was leading to what I perceived as a misinterpretation of my opinion as to how to handle the incident.
I agree with people who say to report it to the police in addition to any other measures you take. I'm not much one for thinking that something needs to be dealt with solely by a school just because it happened there. Assault isn't a school issue, it's a violence issue and crimes need to be reported to the authorities and legal action should be taken.
Assuming she had one, I'd tell my daughter to carry her camera phone in her hand between classes and hit record on it when those boys entered the same hallway she was in. Even if she only got the audio without picture/video because she was afraid to hold it up where they'd see it and instead had to stuff it in her pocket or something, that's better than nothing. At least she'd have something to document the encounter.
I'd also tell her if she could to be vocal about everything happening to reinforce that recording. "Tom, Dick, Harry, stop blocking my path. Stop grabbing my right arm. Stop pushing me into the locker." You get the point. Bullies are often just dumb enough during their bully rush to not curb their speech and could very easily incriminate themselves.
It would also be likely that another student caught it if it went on long enough because people these days are voyeurs obsessed with capturing other people's drama. So I'd also tell my daughter, if she has the presence of mind, to keep an eye out for anyone around when the bullying is happening who has their phone out. These suggestions obviously aren't always realistic or possible in every situation, but they're still something to consider.
As for the rest, I understand the concern about things escalating when it comes to bullying, but this has always been my stance: As the victim, you don't have control over the situation anyway. You do not decide what your bully is going to do to you or when or how bad it's going to be. You have absolutely no power over your bully whatsoever. If you did, you wouldn't be a victim.
Since you have no control over your bully's behavior, what might happen if you defend yourself is irrelevant because it also might happen if you don't. Your bully didn't require you to do anything to them for them to start bullying you in the first place, did they? So what makes you think they'd require you to do anything to them for them to escalate? They can decide that they want to go from insults to assault to rape all in one day all on their little lonesome if they feel like it because that's how much power they have.
The way I see it, then, you have two choices...
1) Defend yourself at the risk of the bullying getting worse.
2) Not defend yourself also at the risk of the bullying getting worse.
I'm sure we could look around and dig up statistics to support this (and probably just as many to oppose it...), but I'd venture a guess that the number of violent bullies who stop bullying a victim out of the blue of their own accord is less than the number who stop because the victim started fighting back and they didn't want to deal with it anymore.
For someone who already has no power over the situation anyhow, I'd go with the option where the odds are at least better that something you're doing might make it stop and you can take some of that power back. I agree as was said that not all kids can fight, not all kids want to fight, and in a perfect world, no one would have to fight. But to me, there's something fundamentally wrong if our instinct for self-preservation fails.
If you stumble, your body reacts to steady itself. If you touch something hot, your body reacts and you pull your hand away. If someone attacks you, your reflex is to defend yourself. That might mean putting up your arms to shield yourself from the attacks, that might mean trying to run away, that might mean trying to fight the attacker off, that might mean screaming and carrying on enough to try to chase them off or get help to come.
If that human nature is missing, if you shut down psychologically/emotionally to the point where you literally just stand there and quietly allow someone to thrash you about without doing anything remotely resembling self defense, something is wrong that goes well beyond the bullying, even if it was triggered by the bullying.
I would fight back because that's just me. I'll protect my life even at the risk of my life. If I'm getting hurt either way, after all, at least I'd feel better knowing I tried to protect myself. I'm strong, agile, loud, and wild enough that even in my teens, three teenage boys would have had a hard time taking me down without me taking at least one of them down with me and that's if I was just fighting.
If I really felt like my life was threatened or that I was about to be sexually assaulted, someone would have one less son that day and somebody else would have two handicapped sons, because at that point, all bets are off and I would use anything at my disposal to get you off me before you're able to restrain me. I'll gouge your eye out with a taco, I'll karate chop your penis with an iPad, I'll bash your head in with a trash bin, I really don't care. Once you've indicated that my life and my personage is of no value to you, yours is of no value to me.
Ahem.
That said, if I was small, shy, and frail, maybe I'd feel differently, I don't know, so I'm not advocating that every child try to go Bruce Lee on their bullies. I'm advocating at least attempting to help yourself. You'd be surprised how many bullying victims don't even try to run. They just stand there frozen while their bully is twenty feet away and wait for the bully to get up to them, then wait for the bully to restrain them, and then they say I couldn't get away.
Not to make light of a serious issue, but if I had a bully I was really that scared of and he was violent and I never had any hope of fighting him off, you could call me the road runner, because it'd be meep meep *dust cloud* the second he was in sight every single time. He'd stop bullying me just because he got tired of chasing my a$$.
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