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You NEVER "beg" a child to do something. You can preface your matter-of-fact requests with a polite "please", but if he was as tired as you described, then as the adult, you get to simply turn off the TV and, "The TV will still be here when you get back from your rest." Or let him rest on the couch with the TV off. Either way, the TV is going off. :-)
Here's the deal -- he KNOWS you were upset. And he feeds on it. What power! What control! He can reduce a grown woman to anger and tears!!! Mom, you're going to have to toughen up just a bit and choose your battles a little more strategically. Safety, yes. (Don't try to rationalize that "he'll get sick if he isn't wearing appropriate clothing." He won't.) Health, yes. Clothes? Eh, so what if he doesn't qualify for the junior edition of GQ? Better a happy, wrinkled kid than a screaming one with an exhausted mom.
I was thinking about this, and I guess it goes back again to the way my personality is different from his and hence the difference in how I was raised. For example I distinctly recall my mom asking me to nap when I was his age or maybe a bit older, but basically it was at the age, as he is right now, where she knew she couldn't MAKE me sleep - but she would ask nicely, "sweetie, please, just try to rest for a little bit, otherwise you'll be really tired later". I was asked to eat in a similar way too. Which is why I've sort of internalized that as being a normal way of talking to a child, NOT about things that are non-negotiable of course, like seatbelts or running on the street, but about the things that would be good if they did, albeit maybe not essential.
The huge difference there though was the second part I bolded - for me, knowing that I made my parents upset and/or angry was a terrible, negative feeling! I never got that power tripping, the enjoyment of getting a rise out of someone I love, and I still don't, I've always been a people-pleaser and conflict avoider. And even a lot of the popular parenting literature operates on the fact that children innately want to please their parents. And yet it goes against what I see in DS, which is closer to what you described, he does seem to enjoy that power...
Does that mean I can't get to the point with him where I could ask him to do something nicely, something that may not be a life-or-death issue, rather than either not bring it up at all or force it, as people are saying here? Is there a certain age after which it becomes feasible?
That's pretty much how all her (parental) threads go.
I do not believe she's asking for actual advice, but rather she's venting. Any good advice is never good enough because she's gotta explain more in depth as to why it could never possibly work or how it just doesn't apply. More than several people pointed out to her, that her own behavior is pretty reflective of her son's and she still doesn't see it.
If you read over all my replies in this thread, particularly in the earlier pages, you'll see me thanking the posters who have actually provided valuable advice and suggestions that I may not have thought of or offered different perspectives. I don't reply to these points in depth because there's no need, I just take them in and write a thank you. The ones I do mention ARE the ones that I feel don't apply for whatever reason - which is why it looks like there's more 'arguments' from me than there really are. If I was looking for broad cookie-cutter statements that can be found on any parenting site, then I probably wouldn't have bothered making a thread. And there's a difference between saying something 'won't work', and saying it 'doesn't work' - again, the very reason I made the thread is because the cookie-cutter approaches AREN'T working, if they DID I wouldn't be here!! As I explained above, I was looking to hear advice I may not have heard before, ideally from personal experience, which several posters did provide and I'm very grateful.
You'll also find that the responses in the thread ranged from paddling him to suggesting he's severely autistic to giving up him for adoption (I believe that post's been removed), so even if I wanted to I couldn't possibly acknowledge and follow through on all the suggestions here
This conversation sort of reminds me of calling customer support at one point, when our internet went out for three days. We had to call several times during this time before they finally sent someone out and it turned out to be a problem on their end; yet every time we called, in spite of us having a case number and them having a record of previous conversations, they would start off with telling us to check whether our modem is on, then to turn it off, then to disconnect the router, etc etc...That in spite of us trying to tell them we've already done that during every previous phone call and that ISN'T the problem! Yet they wouldn't listen until we've gone through it anyway.
That's sort of what's happening with some of the responses here accusing me of being stubborn or not listening...
The therapists weren't 'wrong', they just didn't really tell me anything.
It sounds like you only went to one appointment with each therapist or coach. That's not therapy. You disregard what they're saying because you think you know better. Obviously you don't know better because your way isn't working. To get the most from a professional, you need to work with them for an extended period of time so they have an opportunity to adjust treatment accordingly. Every single one of them recommended further testing or referred you to a psychologist or someone who specializes in treatment that is specific to your son. You never followed up on their suggestions.
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Originally Posted by EvilCookie
What I was frustrated with was the implication that ALL of our problems stem from simply being inefficient parents and the standard cookie-cutter advice like "ignore tantrums, give choices, give consistent consequences, reward good behaviour" presented like panacea - well, it's in every parenting article out there and I'm not that stupid, I've read it, and I wouldn't be here if it worked.
All parents feel that way when they are faced with psychology. The reality is most of parents are the problem. I can admit that I was part of the problem. It's easy to admit in hindsight. We're too protective. We think we know better. We're uncomfortable doing things that seem to make things worse at first. It even says in the psychology books that parents are the chief reason treatment fails. They don't follow through by sticking with something long enough to see results.
You keep saying nothing works because the behavior continues. Nothing works right away. Since your son is only 4 and you've tried many different ways, it's clear you haven't stuck with one thing long enough to be effective. Consistency is the key. Your passive personality wanting to avoid conflict is getting in your way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie
Does that mean I can't get to the point with him where I could ask him to do something nicely, something that may not be a life-or-death issue, rather than either not bring it up at all or force it, as people are saying here? Is there a certain age after which it becomes feasible?
Yes, once you lay the groundwork.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie
You'll also find that the responses in the thread ranged from paddling him to suggesting he's severely autistic to giving up him for adoption (I believe that post's been removed), so even if I wanted to I couldn't possibly acknowledge and follow through on all the suggestions here
You have shared some really bizarre behavior that has nothing to do with him being intelligent and strong willed, such as demanding he stand in a certain location to be spanked and not calming down until you spank him just the right way.
He could have Asperger's. You say it can't be the case because he's intelligent, talkative and social. Well, you don't know people with Asperger's then. My friend has three children with Asperger's and they talk my ear off when I visit. Extremely intelligent. Extremely verbal. Extremely social. Their not understanding social cues doesn't prevent them from trying!
What do you expect people's responses to be when you're describing a very strange bird? You really shouldn't disregard any diagnosis. The earlier he is diagnosed, the more likely he'll have a normal life. And guess what! If he doesn't have a disorder, that means it's all bad parenting.
There's either something wrong with him or there's something wrong with what you're doing. He wouldn't be behaving this way if he is perfectly normal and you're the perfect parent. It's one of you or both of you but it's not neither of you.
Forgot to add that we talk things over endlessly, during the conflict and afterwards when he's in a good mood, we explain why this happened, and remind him over and over that his choice to do/ not to do X had led to consequence Y, and wouldn't it be better if he listened and we could be at the park right now eating ice cream and having fun and blah blah. And he understands everything perfectly, and retells the scenario exactly as it happened and rationalizes away. Yet when it comes to the next time, it's still the same, stubborness for the sake of stubborness...
This kid thinks you are crazy.
They just keep yapping, meanwhile I do exactly what I want.
Give him a smack and teach him that if you ever have to get to 3 again, he'll get another one.
This is incredibly successful for children under the age of 5, stops all that supernanny horsechit of "talking" to the child and sticking them in "time out" which personally, I find abusive. It is isolating the child and turns events into hours of dramas instead of a quick smack on the leg or butt, tears, a hug from mum and a loving explanation regarding 1,2,3.
He's a child, not a small adult. He doesn't need to know "reasons", he just needs to know that you are his boss and that's that.
You have shared some really bizarre behavior that has nothing to do with him being intelligent and strong willed, such as demanding he stand in a certain location to be spanked and not calming down until you spank him just the right way.
He could have Asperger's. You say it can't be the case because he's intelligent, talkative and social. Well, you don't know people with Asperger's then. My friend has three children with Asperger's and they talk my ear off when I visit. Extremely intelligent. Extremely verbal. Extremely social. Their not understanding social cues doesn't prevent them from trying!
What do you expect people's responses to be when you're describing a very strange bird? You really shouldn't disregard any diagnosis. The earlier he is diagnosed, the more likely he'll have a normal life. And guess what! If he doesn't have a disorder, that means it's all bad parenting.
There's either something wrong with him or there's something wrong with what you're doing. He wouldn't be behaving this way if he is perfectly normal and you're the perfect parent. It's one of you or both of you but it's not neither of you.
I'm pretty sure it's a combination - he's got some personality quirks, whether clinically diagnosable or not, and we need to figure out the right approach to parenting him that would work with his specific traits and be effective without exacerbating his behaviour. Clearly we haven't figured it out yet, but I do know that some of the things we've tried are not working - like if he's already high-strung and intense and prone to meltdowns for weird reasons that don't seem to have anything to do with manipulation, then something like a timeout which only makes him MORE hysterical and high-strung isn't going to help things.
I'm obviously not a clinician, but my personal opinion (and supported by others who know him like grandparents) is that he's got some issues with anxiety and regulating his emotions and nerves. It's not a far stretch because my husband and his mom both have these issues as well. IMO the bizarre behaviour I described is a testament to that, because there are plenty of kids whose parents may not be effective disciplinarians, but who don't do that. So I really believe these meltdowns are NOT manipulation, they're really like a loss of control on his part and an inability to shift his focus, and what I need help with is helping him to learn how to self-calm and get that control. That's what I'm trying to get across here and what I was hoping to hear tips about from parents who've gone through it, as well as what I will be asking the therapist once we start working with one.
Ideally what I would've loved is to have a therapist witness one of his meltdowns and watch if they'd be able to get him through it. However that's not likely to happen as they don't happen that often and usually under specific circumstances and not around strangers unless something else like low blood sugar is at play...
DH's also got a cousin with Asperger's, but aside from the meltdowns, I don't see the signs in DS - not that it's not possible, but he's very witty, he gets jokes and humor, he role plays, plays well with others. Social cues...it's hit-and-miss, but hell, DH doesn't get many social cues unless I point them out, so I dunno...it doesn't fit any description of Asperger's I've read but who knows, it IS a spectrum after all. We may all be slightly on it for all I know
For centuries mums have been swatting bratty kids and for centuries the world has got on fine.
Now we have the Cult of the Child, and as a result an entirely new phenomenon of the Kidult, the basement dweller, the child that is never prepared for the harsh realities of life because he expects people to "talk" to him if he screws up.
Well, I guess you've vented and have received a lot of good advice. Maybe you should wait until you move to find another therapist you can stick with for awhile. It might be that your son doesn't like all the inconsistencies.
I'm pretty sure it's a combination - he's got some personality quirks, whether clinically diagnosable or not, and we need to figure out the right approach to parenting him that would work with his specific traits and be effective without exacerbating his behaviour. Clearly we haven't figured it out yet, but I do know that some of the things we've tried are not working - like if he's already high-strung and intense and prone to meltdowns for weird reasons that don't seem to have anything to do with manipulation, then something like a timeout which only makes him MORE hysterical and high-strung isn't going to help things.
The neighbor's daughter did have issues too. She had anxiety. She was extremely sensitive and very hard on herself. If she messed something up (like a drawing), she freaked out and went into fits like you describe. I suspect all the attention her parents gave her when this happened propelled her to also use it for attention when she got older. The reality is they need to learn how to calm THEMSELVES down. Helping him calm himself makes him rely upon you. He need a therapist to teach him the skills to deal with his emotions and calm himself. You can't do that.
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Originally Posted by EvilCookie
I'm obviously not a clinician, but my personal opinion (and supported by others who know him like grandparents) is that he's got some issues with anxiety and regulating his emotions and nerves. It's not a far stretch because my husband and his mom both have these issues as well.
That's why you need professional treatment!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie
Ideally what I would've loved is to have a therapist witness one of his meltdowns and watch if they'd be able to get him through it. However that's not likely to happen as they don't happen that often and usually under specific circumstances and not around strangers unless something else like low blood sugar is at play...
Videotape it. At least they can see his behavior first hand. Also video tape how you intervene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie
DH's also got a cousin with Asperger's, but aside from the meltdowns, I don't see the signs in DS - not that it's not possible, but he's very witty, he gets jokes and humor, he role plays, plays well with others. Social cues...it's hit-and-miss, but hell, DH doesn't get many social cues unless I point them out, so I dunno...it doesn't fit any description of Asperger's I've read but who knows, it IS a spectrum after all. We may all be slightly on it for all I know
My girlfriend's children all possess a great sense of humor. They're very witty. They're very popular too. Her house is the hangout house. It's not uncommon for her to have 10 teenagers over. One of the three is more severe than the others, but he still prefers to be with people.
Dew is on the right track here. Everything doesn't need to be a battle. Health and safety? Important. Clothing, not at all.
If bedtime is an issue, let him fall asleep elsewhere. Make a tent in the living room, and toss in his pillow.
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I think that is going a little too far.
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