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Threefold, I don't agree with you one bit on that--regarding teenagers at any rate--but thank you for clarifying for nimchimpsky what the "party line" on these things is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme
This is not necessarily true. Something can be non-consensual, yet still enjoyed in the moment (eg sometimes children might enjoy physical pleasure while being molested but that doesn't mean it is consensual or that it wasn't harmful).
Adults are in a position of power over teenagers & are expected to know better. A teenager will not think in terms of, "How might sleeping with my ultra sexy teacher negatively impact my future?" They don't realize that boundaries are being violated & that this is shaping their worldview in a way that might lead to them violating boundaries because they did not have a proper role model to tell them, "No, no matter how we feel this is inappropriate & you should be with someone your own age."
Threefold, I don't agree with you one bit on that--regarding teenagers at any rate--but thank you for clarifying for nimchimpsky what the "party line" on these things is.
Clarifying a party line?
Maybe you could clarify why you disagree regarding teenagers? Obviously there are power differentials between teenagers & adults via status/wealth/experience/etc. & obviously a teen's brain is not as developed as an adults, which research has shown impacts the ability to consider long-term consequences.
Maybe you could clarify why you disagree regarding teenagers? Obviously there are power differentials between teenagers & adults via status/wealth/experience/etc. & obviously a teen's brain is not as developed as an adults, which research has shown impacts the ability to consider long-term consequences.
I don't view the so-called power differential as being morally important, let alone dispositive in whether two people should have sex. There are all sorts of power differentials in life. Most of them aren't even controversial.
The inability to consider long-term consequences would be a slightly more convincing argument if I thought it were made in good-faith. I don't think it is, because it's a commonly held assumption that teen-teen sex is less threatening than teen-adult sex. If ability to consider long-term consequences were the issue, it would be better for one party in the transaction to be older and wiser and, e.g. more likely to remember to use protection, etc. etc. than for two equally dumb teens to get it on. Needless to say that is not a popular view of the matter.
This is not necessarily true. Something can be non-consensual, yet still enjoyed in the moment (eg sometimes children might enjoy physical pleasure while being molested but that doesn't mean it is consensual or that it wasn't harmful).
Adults are in a position of power over teenagers & are expected to know better. A teenager will not think in terms of, "How might sleeping with my ultra sexy teacher negatively impact my future?" They don't realize that boundaries are being violated & that this is shaping their worldview in a way that might lead to them violating boundaries because they did not have a proper role model to tell them, "No, no matter how we feel this is inappropriate & you should be with someone your own age."
No matter how hard they try to break down those boundaries, children & teenagers should be able to trust that a parent/adult will not only know right from wrong, but show them with their actions.
So following this thought (bold) our ancestors had "inappropriate" relationships all the time. From what I've read as late as the 1900's it wasn't uncommon for a girl of 14 to marry, usually someone much older than she. It also wasn't unheard of for girls of 13 as well.
I personally know of a girl who was quite promiscuous at 11-12 (looked 15) who started living with a guy who she started "playing" with when 12 and married him at 14 then had a kid at 15. He was around 26. She was one of a few young girls I knew like this and they were always the aggressor. They saw a guy they wanted to "play" with and did their level best to make it happen.
As for prosecution, at that time nothing happened. Flash forward to the last 20 years or so, elected officials like prosecutors and such found these cases to be career builders even though the participants by their own admission weren't harmed.
I'm not saying that the 12 year old girl/26 year old guy was something I'd want for my daughter or son but people are different and a "one size fits all" approach doesn't seem right either.
This is not necessarily true. Something can be non-consensual, yet still enjoyed...
Sorry my Internet died mid-post. Anyway, when I said that by definition abuse means the person did not consent and enjoy the experience, I meant emotionally. I know that the body can have a physical reaction from the stimulation itself, regardless of who is doing the stimulation. However, abuse by definition means the person does not enjoy it, and looking back on an abusive experience will feel very different from looking back on a consensual experience.
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 10-04-2012 at 06:58 AM..
First of all, what I said was nowhere near that unreasonable. Many people are molested and abused and don't tell everyone they know. It's not that far out to simply consider that not every person known to you who has been abused has opened up to you about it.
I'm not trying to prove a negative, either. I am not speaking in definite terms, only in possibilities.
WIthout facts, what you are saying is EVERY bit of unreasonable. What I did was just point out the absurdity because the same argument would work for Nazi's on the other side of the moon.
So I can easily make up the same facts (or different ones) that are grounded in as much reality as your gut.
WIthout facts, what you are saying is EVERY bit of unreasonable. What I did was just point out the absurdity because the same argument would work for Nazi's on the other side of the moon.
So I can easily make up the same facts (or different ones) that are grounded in as much reality as your gut.
What facts am I making up? I'm not claiming anything as fact. What is so unreasonable about saying that out of an entire high school, some of the people in it might have been sexually abused? In fact, statistically speaking, about a 1/6 of the female students probably have been, and about 1/33 of the male students probably have been. Claiming that no one you know has been abused makes no sense when you don't know the facts for sure. Unless someone opens up to you directly about their abuse, or you have witnessed the abuse personally, you can only speak in probabilities.
I don't view the so-called power differential as being morally important, let alone dispositive in whether two people should have sex. There are all sorts of power differentials in life. Most of them aren't even controversial.
The inability to consider long-term consequences would be a slightly more convincing argument if I thought it were made in good-faith. I don't think it is, because it's a commonly held assumption that teen-teen sex is less threatening than teen-adult sex. If ability to consider long-term consequences were the issue, it would be better for one party in the transaction to be older and wiser and, e.g. more likely to remember to use protection, etc. etc. than for two equally dumb teens to get it on. Needless to say that is not a popular view of the matter.
I beg to differ. The power differential is very important when it comes to having sex.
Sorry my Internet died mid-post. Anyway, when I said that by definition abuse means the person did not consent and enjoy the experience, I meant emotionally. I know that the body can have a physical reaction from the stimulation itself, regardless of who is doing the stimulation. However, abuse by definition means the person does not enjoy it
That's your definition and perhaps the dictionary's definition, but unfortunately it isn't the law's definition. If it were Mary Kay Letourneau, among many others, would never have gone to prison.
Get any 4 to 5 women my age in a room and ask them about abuse. It is likely that at least one of them will have been molested by someone.
You would be surprised (of course, those who don't trust you will not tell you, though). I am not talking about just my personal experience, but about my experience in talking to survivors.
The problem is that there are very few statistics on this prior to the 1970s and 80s because girls and women did not often come forward and tell. Many told ONLY when they were adults and having problems that led them to therapy.
Interestingly, quite a bit of this decline has happened among biological and adoptive fathers who have intact families. Thus, your supposition is *partly* correct, but note that in my day, a lot of this abuse occurred in intact families by biological dads. Multiple factors contribute to the decline and it does appear to be a true decline.
Sadly I have to agree with you. My own personal experiences with the first ten girlfreinds that I had 8 of them were either raped or abused as a young girl. As I got older the number increased. I have always felt a certain way because these women trusted me enough to tell me a very bad part in their lives.
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