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Old 08-07-2018, 07:40 PM
 
26,660 posts, read 13,750,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
If the average burden of aluminum in serum (blood) is: 1-3 micrograms(ug)/L (blood).

The average blood volume in 1-12-month-old babies is estimated at 75 ml per kg.

A 12 lb infant is 5.4kg so they would have about 405ml blood or 0.405L. The expected burden would then be 0.81ug aluminum.

Both the DTaP & HepB vaccine=850ug aluminum ... each.*

According to the CDC; Approximately 1.5–2% of inhaled and 0.01–5% of ingested aluminum is absorbed.** Without absorption rate for IM provided, 5% of 850ug is 42.5ug, which is still way above the 0.81ug of aluminum expected.

*https://www.healio.com/pediatrics/jo...rents-concerns
**https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxguides/toxguide-22.pdf
Thank you for taking the time to point this out.

 
Old 08-07-2018, 08:54 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,511 posts, read 6,105,402 times
Reputation: 28836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
No comparison can be made.
As an RN yourself, wouldn’t you agree that the IM route of administration would yield a higher absorption rate than an agent administered by inhalation or ingestion?

I’m sure you have had to give Rocephin ( ceftriaxone)IM (a horrible injection to have to receive or give) to a child that could not tolerate a PO antibiotic. It’s given one time vs a week of oral Amoxicillin & is just as effective. Some of that effectiveness is due to the med & some is due to the route of administration.

The CDC information didn’t provide a SQ nor IM rate so I went with the higher of the inhaled/ingested routes rate (5%).
 
Old 08-07-2018, 09:00 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,437,106 times
Reputation: 7903
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
As an RN yourself, wouldn’t you agree that the IM route of administration would yield a higher absorption rate than an agent administered by inhalation or ingestion?

I’m sure you have had to give Rocephin ( ceftriaxone)IM (a horrible injection to have to receive or give) to a child that could not tolerate a PO antibiotic. It’s given one time vs a week of oral Amoxicillin & is just as effective. Some of that effectiveness is due to the med & some is due to the route of administration.

The CDC information didn’t provide a SQ nor IM rate so I went with the higher of the inhaled/ingested routes rate (5%).
Do any meds administered via IV (as opposed to IM) contain aluminum?
 
Old 08-07-2018, 09:05 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,511 posts, read 6,105,402 times
Reputation: 28836
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
Only an irresponsible parent would endanger the health or lives of their own children or others by not vaccination. And I don't give a rat's patootie what Jenny McCarthy says.
Neither do I. Are you actually insinuating that as the mother of an autistic child; I look up to a former Playboy Bunny & MTV host for guidance?
 
Old 08-07-2018, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,617 posts, read 6,545,986 times
Reputation: 18443
Quote:
Originally Posted by wac_432 View Post
Nope, but plenty of un-vaccinated kids dying, being disfigured, being brain-damaged, being left permanently disabled by easily-preventable diseases thanks to idiocy like this.
Exactly! The truth. Get your kids immunized!
 
Old 08-07-2018, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,109 posts, read 41,277,178 times
Reputation: 45157
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
If the average burden of aluminum in serum (blood) is: 1-3 micrograms(ug)/L (blood).

The average blood volume in 1-12-month-old babies is estimated at 75 ml per kg.

A 12 lb infant is 5.4kg so they would have about 405ml blood or 0.405L. The expected burden would then be 0.81ug aluminum.

Both the DTaP & HepB vaccine=850ug aluminum ... each.*

According to the CDC; Approximately 1.5–2% of inhaled and 0.01–5% of ingested aluminum is absorbed.** Without absorption rate for IM provided, 5% of 850ug is 42.5ug, which is still way above the 0.81ug of aluminum expected.
The error in the calculation lies in the assumption that all of the aluminum is absorbed at once. It isn't. You also have to account for excretion, which means kidney function has to be controlled for.

What happens when actual measurements are done? Note that the math is a wee bit more complex than what you have provided.

https://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content...inum-paper.pdf

"Although aluminum toxicosis is known to occur in humans, it is found exclusively in individuals suffering from kidney disease or in those exposed to high levels of aluminum via occupational inhalation. However, for infants, our study demonstrates that there is little risk for aluminum toxicity following immunizations administered according to ACIP recommendations even with maximal exposures to aluminum adjuvant. For the general population of infants, who receive less than the maximal dose, the risk is even lower."

"Using the previous work of Keith et al. [1] as our starting point, we re-evaluated aluminum levels in infants using a number of updated parameters, including a current pediatric vaccination schedule, baseline aluminum levels at birth, a recent aluminum retention function from human volunteers that incorporates glomerular filtration rates in infants, an adjustment for the kinetics of aluminum efflux at the site of injection, the most recent MRL for aluminum, and up-to-date infant body weight data for children 0–60 months of age. Assuming slow release of aluminum adjuvant from the site of injection into the systemic circulation, we have demonstrated that aluminum levels in infants are well below the minimal risk level curves for either median or low-birth weight babies."
 
Old 08-07-2018, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,109 posts, read 41,277,178 times
Reputation: 45157
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
Do any meds administered via IV (as opposed to IM) contain aluminum?
Yes. Some babies who are unable to take nutrition orally are given IV nutritional products. Those can contain a significant and potentially hazardous amount of aluminum, and doctors have to try to minimize that. Those babies also have immature kidneys that have a harder time eliminating aluminum. Most of the aluminum in the IV nutrition comes as contamination of certain supplements, such as calcium, and it is very difficult to get all of it out of those products. The babies would die without the nutrition, so it is a very hard problem to treat.

The difference is that for a vaccine, the aluminum is slowly absorbed, probably over about two months, so not a lot is presented to the kidneys at once.

Bottom line: there is the potential for a lot of exposure from the nutrition products and very little from a vaccine.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 10:32 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,511 posts, read 6,105,402 times
Reputation: 28836
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
Do any meds administered via IV (as opposed to IM) contain aluminum?
Yes, actually; several. One of them is TPN (total parenteral nutrition), which is given to patients who cannot take any food or fluid orally. In TPN, Aluminim is considered an unavoidable “contaminant” & manufacturers are required to include a package insert that details the amount of aluminum & a reminder of the maximum daily dose:

In infants and patients with impaired kidney function, that dose is 4 to 5 mcg/kg/day to prevent accumulation and toxicity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...6/#!po=3.33333

There are others but TPN is relevant as the pharmaceutical industry makes recommendations knowing that TPN is commonly used for infants for a variety of reasons.
 
Old 08-08-2018, 12:29 AM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,511 posts, read 6,105,402 times
Reputation: 28836
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Bottom line: there is the potential for a lot of exposure from the nutrition products and very little from a vaccine.
But per the CDC recommended immunization schedule, at age 2 months, (depending on brands) an infant will receive between 1,000ug-1,225ug & all within about 10 minutes.

If the FDA limit of 5 mcg/kg/day, in a 5.4kg baby=27ug? That’s 45 times the FDA limit. Granted, vaccines are not given IV so it’s an exaggerated comparison.

One year after my son had his reaction to the vaccines given on his 2nd birthday; his hair strand toxicology panel resulted in one of the highest (top 95th %) Aluminum levels seen in a 3 year old child.

This was still before I had accepted what was happening. I remember thinking “Well, I guess if it comes back high in Mercury, that will be hard to ignore”.

Nope. Mercury was WNL. Aluminum was astronomically high but I hadn’t a clue as to what it meant. I just shrugged it off & thought “Wonder why that would happen?”
 
Old 08-08-2018, 12:57 AM
 
9,418 posts, read 13,500,168 times
Reputation: 10305
Quote:
Originally Posted by temps1 View Post
I thought they were Suzy which is why they look for your vien when they inject it... Otherwise they would just put the needle anywhere in your skin and pump it in..
Are you talking about an IV or a blood draw?
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