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The behavior in school sounds normal to me for a 4 year old. Her outbursts do sound more extreme than something that can be solely attributed to a parenting issue (lack of consistency, too little sleep, poor diet) but see if the therapist has seen any red flags. I would definitely ask about a developmental pediatrician. The wait for an appointment can be long so the sooner you call the better. Is she in public school? I would request a full evaluation there as well.
I have no experience beyond just reading or hearing about other people's experience, but it seems like she might be able to hold it together while she's out and in school but then has to let it all out at some point and it seems like often that is going to be at home with the people she's safest and most comfortable with. And it might seem like a tiny thing setting her off, but if she's holding it in in other places it might be a build up of frustration that you're just not aware of. I think it's great that you're being proactive addressing this, many people tell themselves it's something they'll grow out of and their children continue to struggle.
Thanks. Regarding the bolded, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of that.
If she is only having these outbursts with her parents, then that's a huge clue. That shows that she has the ability to control it when she wants to.
In my experience, as a parent and a preschool teacher, kids do things because they work. One way or another, she is getting a reward for this behavior. I think the relationship and interactions with her parents need to be examined closer.
You know, sometimes it feels like she is programmed to have "x" number of violent outbursts per day. Not saying that she actually is, just that it feels like it. So, she might do great all morning and get dressed and brush her teeth like a pro, but then make up for it at lunch time and for the rest of the day. She might do great while the grandparents are visiting, but then lose it right after they leave.
I’m just going to ask the obvious, is that child just spoiled rotten? Children are master manipulators and do what works. Other than time, what type of punishment is used for undesirable behavior? Does your 4 yr old rule the roost?
I’m just going to ask the obvious, is that child just spoiled rotten? Children are master manipulators and do what works. Other than time, what type of punishment is used for undesirable behavior? Does your 4 yr old rule the roost?
Ha, no. Not spoiled. There are consequences if she breaks the rules. She knows the rules. She knows the consequences. We try to be as consistent as possible. The therapist thinks we are doing everything right as far as that goes.
And no, the behavior is not only at home and only around the parents. That's just where it's worst.
If she is only having these outbursts with her parents, then that's a huge clue. That shows that she has the ability to control it when she wants to.
In my experience, as a parent and a preschool teacher, kids do things because they work. One way or another, she is getting a reward for this behavior. I think the relationship and interactions with her parents need to be examined closer.
I know what you are saying is true. I've had to learn not to let my grandson get away with things -- I was being too easy on him even more so after realizing he is delayed. But this was wrong. That was like letting him train me!
He had to be put in time out a lot of times and being consistent is really important. My daughter (his mom) has a timer set on her phone. Since he is four, he gets 4 minutes in the timeout chair which is in his bedroom. His mom sits quietly with him during his time out and there is no talking allowed for four minutes. If he talks, she resets the timer. It will go to 5 minutes when he turns 5. This cuts out the screaming, arguing, yelling, etc. They learn that they will not get out of "time out" if they continue to talk, scream, or react.
What were the parents like when they were children? Personality tends to be inherited. If the parents were like that when little, but got better as they got older, there's hope.
Also, behavior at school tends to predict behavior out in society. So if she behaves at school, she'll likely be okay in the future.
Look to see if her being tired or hungry is connected to these tantrums, and try to prevent her being overtired, or hungry. Try to make sure she is getting plenty of positive attention from you, but of course, with a younger child in the house, that's challenging. The therapist's recommendations are wonderful, but they're not working. Maybe she would benefit from medication, but unless there is a close relative with a psychiatric condition that requires medication, it's likely that behavior modification alone will work. If there IS a parent, grandparent, aunt or uncle who has bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, or depression with early age onset, then she probably DOES need medication. Be honest with yourselves. No one wants to put their child on psychoactive medication, but if a first degree relative requires it, it's not fair to the child to make them deal with an inherited psychiatric condition without the benefit of medication. You should see a child psychiatrist with her, if this is the case.
When the teacher says everything is fine at school, and the parent says the child's behavior is out of control at home, it means that the methods the parent is using in some way encourage the child to continue this behavior. She's getting a LOT of attention from you when she does this. If when she does this, the adults around her withdraw ALL attention, she'll stop. Of course, it's tough to withdraw attention from a kid who's attacking you and wrecking the house! So you need to have a way that lets her tantrum alone, with no adult presence, in a safe place where she cannot wreck the house.
I would suggest that you take the smallest bedroom in the house and make that her room. Put in it only a mattress and bedding on the floor, maybe a few very sturdy soft stuffed animals, nothing that she can use to hurt herself or damage the room. Make sure that the window cannot be opened more than a few inches. Put a nanny cam in it, and don't let her know that it's there. Put a bolt on the outside of the door. At a calm time, tell her that the tantrums are no good for everyone, including her, and that when they start, she's going to spend time alone in her room to calm herself, and can come out when she's calmed down. When she next starts her tantrum, do the magic 1,2,3. "Child, you have to stop. If you don't stop, you're going to your room until you calm yourself. Slowly count loudly and firmly 1....2......3. When you hit 3, if she hasn't stopped - and the first time, she won't have, since she doesn't think you'll REALLY follow through - you walk (or carry, if necessary) her to her room and shut her in there. IGNORE HER. Do not speak to her or respond in any way whatsoever. Put a bolt on the outside of the door, bolt it, and walk away. Standing outside the room holding the doorknob to keep it shut, as she kicks and screams, and tries to open the door, is no good, because she still has your attention, and she knows it. Watch her on the nanny cam, to make sure she is safe. She's going to kick the walls, etc, but how much damage can a 4 year old do to a room with no tools in it? Do NOT respond to her screams. She will tantrum until she is exhausted, and then she will fall asleep. It may take literally hours the first time. She may scream and cry and cough and choke on mucus and make herself throw up. DO NOT GO IN THERE! If you do, she will know that that is what she has to do to get back your attention, and it will reinforce the bad behavior. When she wakes up, let her out immediately. Go on with life as if it never happened. Don't lecture her, make her perform restitution, anything. It never happened. Repeat next time she tantrums - but very quickly, she will learn that you mean business when you start to count, and she'll control herself. Or when she winds up confined to the room, she'll calm herself quickly and call to come out. If she vindictively starts her tantrum again when she comes out, put her right back in. She's bright enough to realize that if she controls herself, she stays out where all the fun is, and stop the tantrums.
You won't be able to use this method outside the house. She may pull this in the grocery store, where there is no immediate place to confine her. If she does this, you're going to have to not take her out shopping with you. But it's amazing how once little kids understand that "3" is followed by immediate consequence, they sort of get conditioned to stop what they're doing when you start counting.
I know that this sounds very harsh. But really, you've tried everything else! And if this continues, the next thing is that she could hurt the younger child. Plus, it's making you all miserable. She's not happy this way. She WANTS and NEEDS you to set a limit on her behavior, so that she can learn to control herself, and move on to the next developmentally rewarding stage of exploring the outside world of school and friends.
I would maybe ask for a referral to a developmental pediatrician. Is her therapist a psychologist? She sounds a bit outside the norm but a lot of it is typical just more intense or frequent than most of us would have experience with. She's struggling with something and you are on the right track sticking with it and trying to figure it out. I don't have any specific advice...I have one who would melt down more frequently than my others (not violently though) and he just needs time and space to deal with his big emotions and he knows that I don't get to be yelled at or talked back to, so he can take it to his own space. He's like your daughter, exceptionally bright, he was better behaved at school than at home (although not perfect for sure). Most kids are. But when he did have trouble at school, he was also given his own space to work it out (he was in montessori, so they had plenty of space).
This book
Whining: 3 Steps to Stop It Before the Tears and Tantrums Start
worked wonders for my middle child who had a lot of similar behavior
everything starts with the parents and the environment; people don't want to hear that but it is true
this book teaches you how to handle tantrums etc
Sure it is possible your child at the age of 4 needs therapy; but it is highly unlikely.
That would be like my last resort, not my go to jeez
OP, you could be describing my daughter to a "T". There was NOTHING...NOTHING....that could resolve her outbursts. Kicking, screaming, punching holes in walls, hitting, destroying....wailing...you name it. And then she could be sweet and carling and loving. You just never knew what the trigger was going to be.
Now, I don't want you to give up, but it won't get better any time soon. Her mother went the psychiatrist and medication route. No better. In school she cheated, stole, hit, hurt, and hung out with some pretty unhealthy people. In college she made it to the first semester without getting suspended for drugs in the dorm room. Oh, and then there was the car that got totaled, the time in the psychiatric ward, and what else....I forget, but if you can think of it, she did it.
The only thing which took away the bad behavior was challenge. Mental and physical challenge...give her a hunk of clay and twenty minutes latter she came back with an island, a palm tree, characters, and a boat. Give her a computer and she can master more things in an hour than you or I know exist. We skied. Hard. Black Diamonds. All day. Never an out burst or so much as a whimper of 'bad' behavior. Challenge. Mental. Physical. As hard as you can push, that is what it took to curb or isolate the bad behavior.
Today? She graduated from a top college with honors, went on to do bio-pharma research (written up in National Journals for Her research) and is now in her second year of medical school. Challenges. Still has to have them. I worry a lot that she will get bored and do something dumb. To someone, or to herself.
But so far so good. Mid twenties. Will it ever change? I don't know. Is there a magic solution? No, not in my experience.
You just have to give it everything you have. Love., Discipline (LOL). Push your child as hard as you can. They are exceptional, but the wiring is off and they can't function with down time. It somehow drives them off the rails. To this day my daughter, in addition to med school, is an avid skier, and now has taken to back country activities. 20 days in the wilderness sort of thing. Elegant and lady-like, but cooks on a camp fire and lives in the wild just as easily. It's a challenge. For us, there was no other solution, and we tried everything.
(I laugh when people talk about time-outs....or similar discipline. Sure..in her room....and she comes back with the closet door or the dresser in pieces for you...just to show you who is going to win!)
Lastly, there has to be time for you. Send your daughter to an aggressive summer or winter camp with NO electronic crap. Send her to the family farm or the BIL's construction company so she is out of your hair for a period of time so YOU can get/stay healthy and she can get worked to the bone. Otherwise, there will be two sick people, and that is the only thing that is worse than one sick individual.
This book
Whining: 3 Steps to Stop It Before the Tears and Tantrums Start
worked wonders for my middle child who had a lot of similar behavior everything starts with the parents and the environment; people don't want to hear that but it is true
this book teaches you how to handle tantrums etc
Sure it is possible your child at the age of 4 needs therapy; but it is highly unlikely.
That would be like my last resort, not my go to jeez
Nonsense is what I have to say about the bolded.
I believe that children are born with their personalities and they can start with tantrums from the day they are born. (and I'm not meaning a normal baby that's crying because it's hungry or dirty or has gas)
My first child came out of me red-faced, angry and fussy. He was a difficult child to raise. At 33, he is still confrontational and has a temper.
My second child came out of me sleeping and content. He was a breeze to raise. At 30, easy going, happy go lucky and only has a temper when it is truly warranted.
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agree 100 percent
