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Op- just wanted to give a nod to your attentiveness. Trust your instincts.
I witnessed a 9 year old boy go full blown ballistic at a breakfast table. So much so that items on the table went flying. His mom was 8 month pregnant with two other little ones gearing to emulate this boys antics. She appeared to be calm and very out of touch with curtailing his behavior. Matter of fact she had the air of indifference. I cannot tell you how much I envisioned this boy being ballistic in h.s and no one interceding. He is a danger already.
So ..thank you for in a way trying to ease your child's pain...for really that is what this boils down to. It's a pain in anguish and social adaptation.
The assumption that it is just a stage is a lie
Get help now
Having taught preschoolers with severe behavioral issues I completely agree. In the most difficult situations it takes years of intensive therapy and the full cooperation of both the school and the home (every family member who interact with the child, including grandparents) for significant improvement.
I have seen cases where a five year has been such a danger to his parents (tried to stab them with knives, and tried to severely injure them in other ways), that he needed to be hospitalized in a psych ward for a period of time. One mother needed to lock herself in the bathroom and call the police as she was unable to protect herself from her child (his behavior started as a preschooler and got worse over the years). One young student, was "relinquished" by her parents (became a ward of the state) as she tried to murder her younger sisters multiple times (by a knife, by suffocation and by fire). The parents were forced to make the difficult choice between the keeping their older daughter in the home and keeping her younger siblings safe.
While short term, minor behavioral problems can be a "stage" once a child becomes violent it is typically due to something major and it is not a quick fix.
While I am not saying that the OPs child will end up like any of these children, they certainly can not expect advice by strangers on forum to be of any major help. Except for the advice to seek professional help and if the current therapist is not successful in helping they need to seek more and better help. There are pediatric psychiatrists and behavioral interventionists who specialize in difficult situations. The parents may need to work through a University medical center or a treatment center in a major city, as services may be extremely limited in small towns or rural America.
On the bright side I have seen very dramatic changes in some children. In one case that I am very familiar with (and have the scars to show for it) intensive therapy (up to 40 hours per week for the child and 15 hours per week for the parents) for several years made him into a very different child (IMHO, his true nature). He is now loving, warm and does not show any violence towards others at all. But, it took five years for these changes to work and be successful (after the intensive therapy he had part time therapy, first 20 hours per week, then 10 hours and later just five hours per week).
I have also seen children with major changes because they had undiagnosed medical issues that were correctly diagnosed and corrected and children who needed to be on medication start to take the appropriate medications.
Last edited by germaine2626; 09-13-2018 at 05:06 PM..
OP, you could be describing my daughter to a "T". There was NOTHING...NOTHING....that could resolve her outbursts. Kicking, screaming, punching holes in walls, hitting, destroying....wailing...you name it. And then she could be sweet and carling and loving. You just never knew what the trigger was going to be.
Now, I don't want you to give up, but it won't get better any time soon. Her mother went the psychiatrist and medication route. No better. In school she cheated, stole, hit, hurt, and hung out with some pretty unhealthy people. In college she made it to the first semester without getting suspended for drugs in the dorm room. Oh, and then there was the car that got totaled, the time in the psychiatric ward, and what else....I forget, but if you can think of it, she did it.
The only thing which took away the bad behavior was challenge. Mental and physical challenge...give her a hunk of clay and twenty minutes latter she came back with an island, a palm tree, characters, and a boat. Give her a computer and she can master more things in an hour than you or I know exist. We skied. Hard. Black Diamonds. All day. Never an out burst or so much as a whimper of 'bad' behavior. Challenge. Mental. Physical. As hard as you can push, that is what it took to curb or isolate the bad behavior.
Today? She graduated from a top college with honors, went on to do bio-pharma research (written up in National Journals for Her research) and is now in her second year of medical school. Challenges. Still has to have them. I worry a lot that she will get bored and do something dumb. To someone, or to herself.
But so far so good. Mid twenties. Will it ever change? I don't know. Is there a magic solution? No, not in my experience.
You just have to give it everything you have. Love., Discipline (LOL). Push your child as hard as you can. They are exceptional, but the wiring is off and they can't function with down time. It somehow drives them off the rails. To this day my daughter, in addition to med school, is an avid skier, and now has taken to back country activities. 20 days in the wilderness sort of thing. Elegant and lady-like, but cooks on a camp fire and lives in the wild just as easily. It's a challenge. For us, there was no other solution, and we tried everything.
(I laugh when people talk about time-outs....or similar discipline. Sure..in her room....and she comes back with the closet door or the dresser in pieces for you...just to show you who is going to win!)
Lastly, there has to be time for you. Send your daughter to an aggressive summer or winter camp with NO electronic crap. Send her to the family farm or the BIL's construction company so she is out of your hair for a period of time so YOU can get/stay healthy and she can get worked to the bone. Otherwise, there will be two sick people, and that is the only thing that is worse than one sick individual.
Been there. Know what you are going through.
Wow, Ted Bear. Oh my gosh, YES. You get it. Thank you for sharing your story. It really helps. And for the tips. I think you're on to something with keeping her challenged and occupied with a variety of activities (intellectual, athletic, artistic, etc). I laughed out loud at your description of the time outs, because that is exactly what is going on here. The discipline tactics we've tried so far aren't teaching her anything. It just creates a power struggle. And yeah, if I don't figure this out soon, how to help her - I only see things getting worse.
You're right about carving out time for ourselves. We're working on that. It is emotionally exhausting.
Thank you again for sharing your experience and wisdom.
The assumption that it is just a stage is a lie
Get help now
I had this epiphany when baby #2 was three months old. We had a family outing at the park, and as we were pulling out of the parking lot to drive home, my oldest was screaming at the top of her lungs and doing everything she could to create a scene and make everyone miserable. My three month old was just sitting there in her car seat, calm, just chilling. My husband and I had a good laugh, because I joked how the oldest hasn't changed at all since she was a baby - still crying away in her car seat just like she did at three months. But the actual three month old was calm and content. Always has been, unless there is a good reason not to be.
Over the next couple days, I realized, Oh my god, my older kid is always going to be like this. She is always going to have a rough time of it in life. That scene leaving the park really drove home the point that no, this is not just a stage.
Op- just wanted to give a nod to your attentiveness. Trust your instincts.
I witnessed a 9 year old boy go full blown ballistic at a breakfast table. So much so that items on the table went flying. His mom was 8 month pregnant with two other little ones gearing to emulate this boys antics. She appeared to be calm and very out of touch with curtailing his behavior. Matter of fact she had the air of indifference. I cannot tell you how much I envisioned this boy being ballistic in h.s and no one interceding. He is a danger already.
So ..thank you for in a way trying to ease your child's pain...for really that is what this boils down to. It's a pain in anguish and social adaptation.
Thanks. I'm really surprised (and grateful) at how much support there has been on this forum. I expected a lot more judgments and jumping to conclusions about how we're incompetent parents and so on. You're right about the pain in anguish and social adaptation.
Having taught preschoolers with severe behavioral issues I completely agree. In the most difficult situations it takes years of intensive therapy and the full cooperation of both the school and the home (every family member who interact with the child, including grandparents) for significant improvement.
I have seen cases where a five year has been such a danger to his parents (tried to stab them with knives, and tried to severely injure them in other ways), that he needed to be hospitalized in a psych ward for a period of time. One mother needed to lock herself in the bathroom and call the police as she was unable to protect herself from her child (his behavior started as a preschooler and got worse over the years). One young student, was "relinquished" by her parents (became a ward of the state) as she tried to murder her younger sisters multiple times (by a knife, by suffocation and by fire). The parents were forced to make the difficult choice between the keeping their older daughter in the home and keeping her younger siblings safe.
While short term, minor behavioral problems can be a "stage" once a child becomes violent it is typically due to something major and it is not a quick fix.
While I am not saying that the OPs child will end up like any of these children, they certainly can not expect advice by strangers on forum to be of any major help. Except for the advice to seek professional help and if the current therapist is not successful in helping they need to seek more and better help. There are pediatric psychiatrists and behavioral interventionists who specialize in difficult situations. The parents may need to work through a University medical center or a treatment center in a major city, as services may be extremely limited in small towns or rural America.
On the bright side I have seen very dramatic changes in some children. In one case that I am very familiar with (and have the scars to show for it) intensive therapy (up to 40 hours per week for the child and 15 hours per week for the parents) for several years made him into a very different child (IMHO, his true nature). He is now loving, warm and does not show any violence towards others at all. But, it took five years for these changes to work and be successful (after the intensive therapy he had part time therapy, first 20 hours per week, then 10 hours and later just five hours per week).
I have also seen children with major changes because they had undiagnosed medical issues that were correctly diagnosed and corrected and children who needed to be on medication start to take the appropriate medications.
Wow. How scary.
And no, I'm not expecting strangers on an internet forum to provide a magic fix or solution, or replacement for therapy. But people on here have empathized, and provided ideas and suggestions that I didn't previously know about. Now I know, for example, that there is such a thing as a developmental pediatrician. I've looked that up and there are several in my city. Someone mentioned martial arts - no that won't fix the problem, but it might be a positive outlet for her. I've started reading the "Explosive Child" book that another poster suggested. As you have pointed out, this is not going to be a quick fix. If this therapist doesn't help, there are others (although it is more challenging to find people willing to work with kids younger than 6). We are lucky that we are in a large enough city that there are additional resources available, when/if it comes down to needing them.
How to handle a violent 4 year old? Her outbursts come on suddenly, often without warning or any opportunity to de-escalate. They may be triggered by a request to brush her hair in the morning, or by the fact that she learned there will be salad at dinner, the car is too hot, or some other seemingly mundane detail. When she gets out-of-control upset, there is some combination of screaming, hitting, kicking, scratching, throwing things at her parents, etc.
I feel like there is a disconnect somewhere. When she’s calm, and when asked, she will recite any number of healthy ways to express her anger and frustration. Options include hitting her pillow, stomping, “being a turtle” (calming technique a therapist taught her), drawing her feelings, asking for her “calm jar” (a bottle with glitter that can be shaken), etc. But she goes SOO quickly from calm, to out-of-control angry and irrational. When she’s calm, sure, she’s an expert on healthy coping techniques. But when she gets out of control angry, she can’t control herself, much less think rationally about a healthier way to cope with her emotions.
Therapist recommended putting her in time out for 4 minutes (1 minute per year of age). Once the 4 minutes are up, if she is calm and ready to apologize, she may come out, apologize, and is given a small task she can do to make it all better. If she’s not calmed down after 4 minutes, she gets another 4 minutes of time out, until she is calm. We’ve taken anything out of her room that can be used as a weapon or used for destruction. When she is in her room, she’ll kick the door over and over, and/or open the door and slam it against the wall hard enough to break a hole in the wall. This happened twice in the past couple months. What to do?
She struggles much more with transitions than the average kid.
We’ve just started therapy a couple weeks ago, but I welcome any advice or ideas anyone here has.
A psychiatrist will be able to figure out what illness she has because she does suffer from not being able to control or understand what is happening when she acts out. I don't believe these are temper tantrums. Punishing her is not the way to help. Training her to stop and use words or calming techniques is not going to help. Have you ever considered she is autistic? Remember that your little girl is not the behavior but it is her illness that is causing the behavior.
Wow, Ted Bear. Oh my gosh, YES. You get it. Thank you for sharing your story. It really helps. And for the tips. I think you're on to something with keeping her challenged and occupied with a variety of activities (intellectual, athletic, artistic, etc). I laughed out loud at your description of the time outs, because that is exactly what is going on here. The discipline tactics we've tried so far aren't teaching her anything. It just creates a power struggle. And yeah, if I don't figure this out soon, how to help her - I only see things getting worse.
You're right about carving out time for ourselves. We're working on that. It is emotionally exhausting.
Thank you again for sharing your experience and wisdom.
Both of what Ted Bear and English talk about are classic examples of DMDD. Normal "parenting" does not work with these children. A lot of parents will scoff at that. Other parents will see your child mis-behaving and think there is something wrong with the parent. Parents are exhausted trying to manage kids with DMDD. It's a constant battle. If you don't have a DMDD kid, you have no idea of what it is like.
Believe me, I'm old school parenting. Retired military. I don't beat my kids, but I do expect them to have respect and discipline. Trying to get them ready for the world. My two oldest girls (19,16) are great examples. Honor students, never been in trouble. My son, who also had ADHD and is 12, has the DMDD. He is home schooled. Luckily, I think his case is mild compared to many others. He does fairly well in school.
DMDD kids really have a split-personality. They can be loving and sweet, then with a flip of a switch, be destroying the house, cussing and being very violent. My recommendation is to find a good psychologist or psychiatrist who specializes in DMDD.
Both of what Ted Bear and English talk about are classic examples of DMDD. Normal "parenting" does not work with these children. A lot of parents will scoff at that. Other parents will see your child mis-behaving and think there is something wrong with the parent. Parents are exhausted trying to manage kids with DMDD. It's a constant battle. If you don't have a DMDD kid, you have no idea of what it is like.
Believe me, I'm old school parenting. Retired military. I don't beat my kids, but I do expect them to have respect and discipline. Trying to get them ready for the world. My two oldest girls (19,16) are great examples. Honor students, never been in trouble. My son, who also had ADHD and is 12, has the DMDD. He is home schooled. Luckily, I think his case is mild compared to many others. He does fairly well in school.
DMDD kids really have a split-personality. They can be loving and sweet, then with a flip of a switch, be destroying the house, cussing and being very violent. My recommendation is to find a good psychologist or psychiatrist who specializes in DMDD.
Wow, a lot of great posts. They described my daughter who was DX with ODD way back when it 1st came out. She's been in every type of counseling and on every type of medication. Now we're dealing with her 5 year old son who is not only explosive like her but also violent and the more violent the better for him. He's the size of an 8 year old easily.. Built like a $h!t brick house too so anything he does is powerful. He's gotten me in the nose 3 times already with a tablet and full sized kindle. He's always looking to hurt me if he's mad. There are days I can say yes he's tired or hungry but days when that doesn't even apply. Even at 2 years old he could not say "I'm sorry" to someone but now he will eventually mutter some form of sorry an hour or so after the fact. He for sure has ADHD undiagnosed. I don't know what my daughter is going to do because I could barely handle her; I'm clueless how she'll be able to handle him especially with her own explosive temper. I may have to file for custody of him at some point.
And I agree with being born this way except my daughter was a joy unless hungry or tired when newborn. At about 15 months something happened and I can't remember specifics except I was alone with her, her father was working a double an hour from here and stayed at his moms. She was being really fussy. I remember her body stunk, like something was pouring out of her pores and then eventually she was fine. I don't remember a fever or if she got shots that day all I remember is after she was very hard to parent. Used to refuse to walk across the street home; she was too big to carry, here she drops down and starts crawling to be defiant. I picked her up and threw her across my shoulder to carry her which made her kick me. Since then she's been all mouth and no punishment works.
There have been some very thoughtful and insightful comments here. Your story and experience reminds me of a friend of mine. And reading through all the comments I see several people have mentioned diet and I want to echo this. Food allergies and sensitivities turned out to be a huge treatment factor in the child of my friend.
OP, It may lead to nowhere, but diet is very worth the exploration as a piece of the puzzle. I wish you all the best in your journey.
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