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Which goes back to people researching parenting BEFORE they have kids. I grew up in a nice suburban environment where women were expected to get married and have kids. My mother didn't drive (still doesn't) and I wasn't going to be taught to drive either because that's what my husband would be doing.
But I didn't have the best childhood and because of that, I knew I would make a terrible mom. I have a temper, I don't like loud noises, I despise saying no more than once, and I like alone time. If I had just followed the life script laid out for me, my kids would be in foster care or dead and I'd be in prison.
I was lucky but so many women aren't. The pressure to have children once you're married (and even if you're not married) is incredible and never ending. Why do you think the worst parents have kids sometimes?
Totally missing the point. It wouldn't even cross the minds of a great many people to even consider researching something like that. I mean c'mon, that's like suggesting people should research all the pros and cons of driving before getting behind the wheel. Most people are going to assume that since every Tom, Dick, and Harry does it that it must not take any special skills. The people most likely to do their research on raising kids are the ones that already have the tools in place to do a good job of it should they choose to go that route, IMO that isn't the majority of the population.
Most is most. The majority of people have kids. I didn’t say the majority of highly educated women although I think if we did the numbers you’d find that the majority of educated women have a kid as well. More highly educated women are having kids when they get around to it thanks to ivf and surrogates. I don’t necessarily agree with that but it’s their body their choice and that’s a while other thread.
It sounded like you didn't believe there were people who regretted having kids. I was merely pointing out that there were people who wished they hadn't had kids. A lot of them, too. Also, many people aren't on reddit. How many more are out there that wish they weren't parents that think they're the only ones?
Which goes back to people researching parenting BEFORE they have kids. I grew up in a nice suburban environment where women were expected to get married and have kids. My mother didn't drive (still doesn't) and I wasn't going to be taught to drive either because that's what my husband would be doing.
But I didn't have the best childhood and because of that, I knew I would make a terrible mom. I have a temper, I don't like loud noises, I despise saying no more than once, and I like alone time. If I had just followed the life script laid out for me, my kids would be in foster care or dead and I'd be in prison.
I was lucky but so many women aren't. The pressure to have children once you're married (and even if you're not married) is incredible and never ending. Why do you think the worst parents have kids sometimes?
First off, let me say that I'm sorry you feel/felt pressured to have kids. I never felt that way, but it's probably because of my gender. Many extra burdens are unfairly placed (intentionally or unintentionally) on women. I think you are making the right choice for you and I certainly would say having children is NOT for anyone who is not wholly committed to the life changes and sacrifices involved. Mom/aunt/sister/rando tossing off some jerk statement about being childless certainly will not make you feel as bad as an entire lifetime commitment to offspring you'd rather not have had. Everybody has regrets, so any parent who says it's all roses and butterflies is probably just trying to look good on social media. On balance (so far) I'm really glad I had kids, and I expect on balance you feel the same about not having them.
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I know one set of parents who wish they'd never had kids. Mine. And from what I've read, I doubt very much my perception is "skewed". Ann Landers got 10,000 replies to her question asking if parents regretted having their kids and 7000 of those women wished they hadn't. Ten years after the pill was invented. That's a lot of regret.
I am not close friends with any parents, but even if I were, I doubt they'd admit such a thing to someone in casual conversation. It's like saying you hate god to say you wish you hadn't had kids. I'm 65 and I still get roasted because I say I'm glad I never had kids. I can only imagine the backlash parents, especially women, get for saying they regret becoming a parent. If you don't think you know any such people, maybe there's a good reason for it. The negative judgment is incredible. [/quote]
Times, and possibly locations have changed. I admit we live in a fairyland of wealth and privilege in coastal SoCal, so ymmv. 10,000 replies to a columnist who makes a living publishing people's complaints about life and family is hardly a scientific sample, especially since that article was published, what? twenty thirty years ago? At least a generation if not two. A lot has changed in society since then.
You are not close friends with any parents so you really can't speak to how they feel at all, any more than can those nosey jerks--who assure you your life would be so much better with a snotty brat hanging from your skirt, or spending all your money on an Art History major, or living in your basement playing MMOGs--can speak to yours.
Plenty of people in my neck of the woods would casually say they hate (or just don't believe in) God, though they're more likely to indicate it from their behavior; not attending religious services or making them a part of their life. Same basic deal with parents. You can get a good read on whether your friends find true joy in their children, or if they're just going through the motions.
Though we live in a UHCOL area, not all our friends are millionaire snobs. We have friends across the spectrum, from one on public assistance who works in a thrift store and won't shut up about how proud she is of her son graduating the local college and getting a scholarship to a university to, yes, the trust fund babies who truly enjoy spending swaths of their (formerly) free time introducing their children to all the diversions of the wealthy (skiing, surfing, sailing, travel).
We have relatives, friends, and acquaintances who live in other parts of the country and world who aren't shy about sharing the problems about their broods--be they huge or small--yet I certainly don't get the impression that they regret having children.
For perspective, think about your own circle. Do you know many people who seem to regret deciding not to have children? I would assume you do not. Thinking that the same is not true of parents is likely inaccurate.
I will caveat all this, however, by saying that it is strange I do not know at least one family with young children that seems to not have prepared for them, or that does not regret having them. We know at least 20 families, yet they all seem happy. So either you are correct that some are hiding their regret, or the % of regretful parents is so low that our small sample size can't catch any.
I do know one neighbor and one coworker who might regret being parents. One is an older man who's child moved back home and then died young. I get the impression that it was drug-related. The other is also an older couple, on their 1st/2nd marriage respectively, who have a child from their first marriage who lives at home and is something of a ner-do-well. I do read them both as unhappy in general but the subjects are obviously touchy so I don't know the details. I surely cannot ask them if they regret being parents, if having children was something they did without sufficient research, and if they were disinterested in being parents when their children were young.
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My saying parents don't research is based on: parents who can't afford their kids (can't afford an apartment, GoFundMe for diapers and strollers, using grandparents as babysitters because they can't afford daycare), parents who expect other people to work around their kids' schedules (parents wanting to leave work early, cut lines, etc), and parents who have simply abdicated parenting. We all see their kids screaming and running wild in restaurants, bars, libraries, grocery stores, and other public places. In other words, these parents don't have or never had a clue as to how to raise their children to be members of society.
Certainly we all wish that life were completely stable, that everyone was guaranteed enough to eat, wear, and a safe place to sleep at all times. I don't think that people who live on the edge of affordability should be forced to live a childless life. You grew up in a wealthy home and yet had parents who shouldn't have been. Sounds like you were strictly disciplined (not to run wild) yet your parents were no better parents for it. Certainly it's annoying when children do not behave in public and doubly-so when parents ignore or encourage it, but I do not see that as the majority.
Again, YMMV, but I've never been to this dystopian location where the preponderance, or even a significant number, of parents have abdicated parenting because they had no idea it would be so hard. Sure, most parents do things differently than I would, and you--with no experience being a parent--likely judge them even more harshly, but I would disagree that an outburst in a store, or even children left to run wild (this is a parenting style, albeit an annoying one that I disagree with) to the point where they bother strangers in a public place, indicates parents who did not do their research or regret having children.
I see the same behavior many times worse with dog owners who allow their dogs to jump on, sniff, lick, bark at, and annoy strangers in public places. That does not mean they did not do their research before buying a dog or hate owning the dog. I don't like their annoying habits--especially since there is no law against leaving fido at home alone--but I don't assume they stem from not doing enough research on dog ownership or regretting it.
Before I had children, when I had no plans to have any, I too asked for similar special accommodations afforded the parents where I worked, and I was denied. I did not resent the parents for this, just my intransigent boss. A parent and child[ren] are not a single unit. They are two (or more) human beings with one dependent on the other. Like accommodations for disabled people, society functions better if we help out those who have extra burdens, voluntary or involuntary. After all, parents are (intentionally or unintentionally) doing everyone the service of preventing a catastrophic--and unpleasant for those of us caught in it--collapse of human society, which--social scientists tell us--would occur if suddenly all (or even as little as 30%) of them stopped having and raising children.
Some of my friends and family constantly ask about me having kids. They go on and on about how cute they are and how much fun they are. However, after a drink or two, they open up about how time consuming kids are and how much trouble they are. I've even had one friend who admitted she regretted having children.
Why do you think many people are dishonest about the realities of having children? If not dishonest, they never seem to be mention all of the negatives.
I don't think they are. I think it's rewarding and fun but time consuming and trouble. All I can think about is how much parents love their kids. I'm not a parent myself but I often wonder what it's like to love someone that much. It may be something I never get to know.
Before I had children, when I had no plans to have any, I too asked for similar special accommodations afforded the parents where I worked, and I was denied. I did not resent the parents for this, just my intransigent boss. A parent and child[ren] are not a single unit. They are two (or more) human beings with one dependent on the other. Like accommodations for disabled people, society functions better if we help out those who have extra burdens, voluntary or involuntary. After all, parents are (intentionally or unintentionally) doing everyone the service of preventing a catastrophic--and unpleasant for those of us caught in it--collapse of human society, which--social scientists tell us--would occur if suddenly all (or even as little as 30%) of them stopped having and raising children.
First, excellent post, with insightful observations. I'd just like to comment on your concluding paragraph.
Disabled people didn't choose to be disabled. Misfortune visited them, and now they're coping as best as they can. We accommodate their needs, within reason, because we sympathize with their plight and feel a brotherly affection, as fellow humans. But in most cases, parenthood is a choice. It wasn't a misfortune visited upon said people. They did this intentionally. Now, if they suffer privations, I sympathize with the children - but not with the parents. It's no fault of the kids themselves. But it definitely is the fault of the parents!
There's a pervasive argument that SOMEBODY out there better be reproducing, lest we all perish. I am not persuaded of this. Yes, my eventual Social Security depends on new workers paying taxes, so if not enough new future workers are born, there go my benefits. That would be unfortunate, and in all honesty, I do sincerely hope that when my turn comes, enough workers are still around. But while we're being honest, isn't that a bit selfish? I mean, if today's young adults better start having more kids, to sustain my future old-age benefits .... uh, "hope" notwithstanding, I'm quite willing to relent and to forego those darned benefits, if so doing, releases today's young adults from the travails of parenthood. That seems only fair.
If we reject that argument, then we're back to parenthood as a choice, not as a civic virtue. And if it's a mere choice, then ought we not be individually responsible for our choices?
If I buy a sports car, that supports all sorts of high-end value-added jobs, does it not? I'm doing something for the economy, am I not? So then, where are my sports car tax breaks? OK, that's not how it works. A sports car is a personal indulgence. If I want it, I better be able to pay for it. Why isn't parenthood a similar indulgence?
Some of my friends and family constantly ask about me having kids. They go on and on about how cute they are and how much fun they are. However, after a drink or two, they open up about how time consuming kids are and how much trouble they are. I've even had one friend who admitted she regretted having children.
Why do you think many people are dishonest about the realities of having children? If not dishonest, they never seem to be mention all of the negatives.
I honestly can't think of any negatives when considering my experience raising my own children, and, yes, I recognize what an insane privilege it is to be able to say that. I'm sure some people do regret having children. I'm pretty sure my own mother would have said as much when my brother and I were young, but that was more because of her own personal struggles than my sibling and me being particularly difficult to raise. All that being said, please don't have children if you have any doubts that being a parent is right for you. It's perfectly okay to choose not to become a parent.
Totally missing the point. It wouldn't even cross the minds of a great many people to even consider researching something like that. I mean c'mon, that's like suggesting people should research all the pros and cons of driving before getting behind the wheel. Most people are going to assume that since every Tom, Dick, and Harry does it that it must not take any special skills. The people most likely to do their research on raising kids are the ones that already have the tools in place to do a good job of it should they choose to go that route, IMO that isn't the majority of the population.
Seriously? There's a helluva big difference between researching driving and researching having kids. I think kids are the most important thing you can have in life and no one is willing to put any research into having them? That's pretty - messed up.
It's not like you can put them back or something. They're permanent!
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Originally Posted by wac_432
First off, let me say that I'm sorry you feel/felt pressured to have kids. I never felt that way, but it's probably because of my gender. Many extra burdens are unfairly placed (intentionally or unintentionally) on women. I think you are making the right choice for you and I certainly would say having children is NOT for anyone who is not wholly committed to the life changes and sacrifices involved. Mom/aunt/sister/rando tossing off some jerk statement about being childless certainly will not make you feel as bad as an entire lifetime commitment to offspring you'd rather not have had. Everybody has regrets, so any parent who says it's all roses and butterflies is probably just trying to look good on social media. On balance (so far) I'm really glad I had kids, and I expect on balance you feel the same about not having them.
I will admit, women are the ones who really do take a lot of guff about not having kids. For some reason, men don't get as much grief.
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Times, and possibly locations have changed. I admit we live in a fairyland of wealth and privilege in coastal SoCal, so ymmv. 10,000 replies to a columnist who makes a living publishing people's complaints about life and family is hardly a scientific sample, especially since that article was published, what? twenty thirty years ago? At least a generation if not two. A lot has changed in society since then.
You are not close friends with any parents so you really can't speak to how they feel at all, any more than can those nosey jerks--who assure you your life would be so much better with a snotty brat hanging from your skirt, or spending all your money on an Art History major, or living in your basement playing MMOGs--can speak to yours.
Plenty of people in my neck of the woods would casually say they hate (or just don't believe in) God, though they're more likely to indicate it from their behavior; not attending religious services or making them a part of their life. Same basic deal with parents. You can get a good read on whether your friends find true joy in their children, or if they're just going through the motions.
Though we live in a UHCOL area, not all our friends are millionaire snobs. We have friends across the spectrum, from one on public assistance who works in a thrift store and won't shut up about how proud she is of her son graduating the local college and getting a scholarship to a university to, yes, the trust fund babies who truly enjoy spending swaths of their (formerly) free time introducing their children to all the diversions of the wealthy (skiing, surfing, sailing, travel).
We have relatives, friends, and acquaintances who live in other parts of the country and world who aren't shy about sharing the problems about their broods--be they huge or small--yet I certainly don't get the impression that they regret having children.
For perspective, think about your own circle. Do you know many people who seem to regret deciding not to have children? I would assume you do not. Thinking that the same is not true of parents is likely inaccurate.
I will caveat all this, however, by saying that it is strange I do not know at least one family with young children that seems to not have prepared for them, or that does not regret having them. We know at least 20 families, yet they all seem happy. So either you are correct that some are hiding their regret, or the % of regretful parents is so low that our small sample size can't catch any.
I do know one neighbor and one coworker who might regret being parents. One is an older man who's child moved back home and then died young. I get the impression that it was drug-related. The other is also an older couple, on their 1st/2nd marriage respectively, who have a child from their first marriage who lives at home and is something of a ner-do-well. I do read them both as unhappy in general but the subjects are obviously touchy so I don't know the details. I surely cannot ask them if they regret being parents, if having children was something they did without sufficient research, and if they were disinterested in being parents when their children were young.
I've worked with parents for over 35 years. Believe me, I know a lot of them. No, they won't say anything, outright to other people, but I've had numerous opportunities to hear them talk and in the long run, I really feel sorry for a lot of them. I haven't stayed in touch with any of them, though, so I hope they were able to work through their problems and are happier now.
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Certainly we all wish that life were completely stable, that everyone was guaranteed enough to eat, wear, and a safe place to sleep at all times. I don't think that people who live on the edge of affordability should be forced to live a childless life. You grew up in a wealthy home and yet had parents who shouldn't have been. Sounds like you were strictly disciplined (not to run wild) yet your parents were no better parents for it. Certainly it's annoying when children do not behave in public and doubly-so when parents ignore or encourage it, but I do not see that as the majority.
Again, YMMV, but I've never been to this dystopian location where the preponderance, or even a significant number, of parents have abdicated parenting because they had no idea it would be so hard. Sure, most parents do things differently than I would, and you--with no experience being a parent--likely judge them even more harshly, but I would disagree that an outburst in a store, or even children left to run wild (this is a parenting style, albeit an annoying one that I disagree with) to the point where they bother strangers in a public place, indicates parents who did not do their research or regret having children.
I see the same behavior many times worse with dog owners who allow their dogs to jump on, sniff, lick, bark at, and annoy strangers in public places. That does not mean they did not do their research before buying a dog or hate owning the dog. I don't like their annoying habits--especially since there is no law against leaving fido at home alone--but I don't assume they stem from not doing enough research on dog ownership or regretting it.
Before I had children, when I had no plans to have any, I too asked for similar special accommodations afforded the parents where I worked, and I was denied. I did not resent the parents for this, just my intransigent boss. A parent and child[ren] are not a single unit. They are two (or more) human beings with one dependent on the other. Like accommodations for disabled people, society functions better if we help out those who have extra burdens, voluntary or involuntary. After all, parents are (intentionally or unintentionally) doing everyone the service of preventing a catastrophic--and unpleasant for those of us caught in it--collapse of human society, which--social scientists tell us--would occur if suddenly all (or even as little as 30%) of them stopped having and raising children.
I sure didn't grow up in a wealthy home. We lived in a typical suburb, but I remember when my parents were on welfare when my dad was out of work.
I wish I could say seeing misbehaving children was rare. Worse are the parents, usually mothers, of misbehaving children. Some of the things I've seen are:
a child put on the floor who crawled over to the tube glue, took the cap off, and started to eat it. I told the mother, she put the glue back, and then totally ignored the child who took the cap off again and again started to eat the glue.
a young child running around behind the counter where we had cutting machines, printers the kid could have been burnt on, and other things he could have gotten hurt on. I kid you not, I stood there holding the child and asked the line whose child this was for 2 whole minutes before some woman in line threw her stuff on the floor, came and got the kid, and stomped off.
a woman who totally ignored her 10 year old daughter putting her 5 year old sister on her shoulders (ages approximate). The smaller kid was swaying back and forth on the shoulders of the older child which wasn't such a big deal, except they happened to be right next to plate glass windows.
I've watched mothers come into stores with their toddlers following them and leaving the door to swing back and hit them, and the mothers don't even look back. I've seen mothers leave their little kids in the car and watched one car roll backwards out of our parking lot into the street. When I was waitressing, I've had parents who would hold their coffee cup out for a refill over their kids. I've had a mother ask a friend and I, total strangers, to watch her kid while she went to get popcorn in a theater. I've had mothers yell at me that I should be watching their kids while they shopped. And all this is just a few things I've witnessed in my lifetime.
It's scary. Sometimes I wonder if mothers are really trying to kill their kids or get them kidnapped. My own mother was such a dingbat that she used to leave me in a bathtub alone when I was three and once when we were playing long darts, she threw one when I was pulling one out of the ring.
Parents are sometimes so clueless about kids. I really think we should make parents have a license before they can take a baby home from the hospital.
Parenting is both the hardest thing you will ever do and the most rewarding thing you will ever do.
It's not for the faint of heart but I would do it all over again. My kids made me who I am.
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