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I question that. Does santa "teach" generousity when the child is learning that they automatically deserve anything they want? What you want it to teach and what the kids actually get out of it are two different things.
Okay, then let me elaborate. The Santa of myth models unconditional giving, and I think only a tiny majority of children beyond preschool age think they deserve or receive everything they request all the time.
I suspect that the majority of kids who believe in Santa Claus are at the developmental stage of preoperational cognition (see Piaget). Belief in magic is characteristic of this stage. At about age seven, children enter the concrete-operational stage, which is characterized by much more logical thought. It's no surprise that this is typically when children begin questioning the Santa myth. Subsequently, I don't believe there is any harm in taking a preschooler to sit on Santa's lap.
Those of us who choose to continue believing as we grow older are generally capable of understanding the symbolism of the Santa myth. Ongoing ego-centrism isn't necessarily a consequence of one day of raking in gifts.
Maybe you know a different Santa myth than I do, but in mine Santa gives, kids take. Maybe there's a plate of cookies but the questions are "what do you want for Christmas" and "what did you get for Christmas".
I'm sure there are other options besides 'lie to kids' and 'sit and grouse'
Yeah maybe I do. We also like to give anonymously as a family. I think if kids know the feelings of getting, then they might understand better how a family would feel to have a turkey dinner or things they need or just simple pleasures even if they can't afford them. Isn't that sort of the idea of Santa? To give anonymously and expect nothing in return but the hope that you can make someone, somewhere have a nice day?
I think I'd use a different term other than "take" to describe Santa in our house growing up; kids "received," they didn't take. I can see how if a kid asked Santa for a long list of expensive or unnecessary/inappropriate items and then expected (and did) receive every single one of them there could be a problem. Santa brought a stocking and one bigger special gift. The stockings were usually more exciting than the big gift, even; the value of the contents weren't much, but all those little trinkets (and holiday chocolates once we got older. Mmm..) were a lot of fun to open. In my own family now adults get stockings, too, and I still love being surprised by all the little, thoughtful things in them. The exchange of material goods doesn't have to always equate crass consumerism or materialism.
And while we didn't give Santa anything concrete in return (other than cookies), we did take a great deal of time selecting (and buying with our allowance money) or making gifts for other family members. And I'd also suggest that while kids don't do giving of "stuff" (typically) in the Santa tradition, there is the general concept that kids are giving happiness and cheer, peace and goodwill, and all those other special, warm, non-commercial feelings.
Besides, like the others above have pointed out, I think the concept of unconditional giving is a good one. I know there's the naughty and nice list, I suppose, but even people who talk about that aren't telling kids "one strike and it's over; no presents for you." There's always room for redemption.
What better way to teach children about giving than to give them a bunch of stuff?
You better watch out. Keep it up and people will start telling you that you have a superiority issue or that you talk about yourself too much. I suggest that we teach our kids about giving by putting them into a position to give and list a few ways we've done that and suddenly it is world war three. We don't lie to our kids. We don't need santa to give our kids toys to teach giving, besides the fact that isn't giving about helping someone or some people obtain need vs want items?
I think I'd use a different term other than "take" to describe Santa in our house growing up; kids "received," they didn't take. I can see how if a kid asked Santa for a long list of expensive or unnecessary/inappropriate items and then expected (and did) receive every single one of them there could be a problem. Santa brought a stocking and one bigger special gift. The stockings were usually more exciting than the big gift, even; the value of the contents weren't much, but all those little trinkets (and holiday chocolates once we got older. Mmm..) were a lot of fun to open. In my own family now adults get stockings, too, and I still love being surprised by all the little, thoughtful things in them. The exchange of material goods doesn't have to always equate crass consumerism or materialism.
I come from a family where we'd get one main gift Christmas Eve from our parents and everything else came from "Santa." My sister's make sure that santa gets credit for the biggest gift, and they go over board...such as one sister who got a four wheeler for her 5 year old and then states, "I don't know how I'm going to beat that next year."
And while we didn't give Santa anything concrete in return (other than cookies), we did take a great deal of time selecting (and buying with our allowance money) or making gifts for other family members. And I'd also suggest that while kids don't do giving of "stuff" (typically) in the Santa tradition, there is the general concept that kids are giving happiness and cheer, peace and goodwill, and all those other special, warm, non-commercial feelings.
Yup. Our daughter made picture frames for everyone in the family one year with pictures of herself and each family member to receive them and my mother says, "Geez, why didn't you just give her a few bucks and take her to the dollar store." When our kids finally asked who this santa guy when they heard about it on their own, we told them there never really was a real santa clause but the idea was that we make sure we take the time at the end of each year, especially when its cold and things are more expensive, ect to give to those who don't have as much as you do, to spread the wealth so to speak. They get concerned about keeping their winter coats nice so they look like new for another kid next year. Though I am agreeing with you, I suppose someone will harp on me about it. Can't even remember good or bad times and share them without people being acting like jerks for not following their santa religion.
Besides, like the others above have pointed out, I think the concept of unconditional giving is a good one. I know there's the naughty and nice list, I suppose, but even people who talk about that aren't telling kids "one strike and it's over; no presents for you." There's always room for redemption.
I hear this constantly. Just today I heard a woman look at her daughter and tell her if she won't knock it off santa wasn't going to bring her any toys. The little girl just wanted to take her hood of her coat off her head. I don't have a single relative who doesn't play this card. Its vengeful and psychologially damaging when they do this. What a horrible way to spend Christmas, in fear that a small slip up with land them the only person not getting gifts on Christmas.
Okay, then let me elaborate. The Santa of myth models unconditional giving, and I think only a tiny majority of children beyond preschool age think they deserve or receive everything they request all the time.
I was simply stating that there are different and possibly better ways to teach that lesson that was all. And I wonder why even a preschooler would expect they get whatever they want. Maybe other parents don't teach their kids no that early?
I suspect that the majority of kids who believe in Santa Claus are at the developmental stage of preoperational cognition (see Piaget). Belief in magic is characteristic of this stage. At about age seven, children enter the concrete-operational stage, which is characterized by much more logical thought. It's no surprise that this is typically when children begin questioning the Santa myth.
I've stated that, however, it is completely based on IQ. IQ is simply the measurement of an individuals logic. As the IQ goes up with a child, the age they question this goes down. In fact it is one of the things they point out as a possible indicator of a high IQ. To let me claify that last sentence, when they list the things that a child does with an IQ of 130, 140, 150, 160+ that list the age that the child questions santa.
Subsequently, I don't believe there is any harm in taking a preschooler to sit on Santa's lap.
Let us step back a few years.... So there is a guy and a woman who live in the middle of our town. The big slob rides his bike while he screams at his wife to stay up with him as she runs behind behind him. He's a jerk and a creep. When I first met these people I was told by DH, before he was DH, to get away from them. He approached me where I worked and began to talk to me and DH authoritively came up and took me off to do some made up project. He knew I was new to the area and had seen how nice I had been with other mentally challenged adults. (I have close relatives with challenges that I grew up with so I have a lot of compassion and will let them talk my ear off and help them any way I can.) He takes me back to the office and sits me down to tell me what this guy had told him before he had started talking to me..."So the cops came to my house last night. A 12 year old boy was misisng and they wanted to check my basement. I told them I don't do that anymore." DH...err...my boss () tells me that everytime anyone sees him come in, they want to punch him. Everyone hates him and it made him sick to see the guy standing their patting my shoulder and me allowing it. Then he tells me his nickname...perverted santa...turns out the reason he ever got caught for molesting children was...you guessed it...while ho-hoing at the local walmart with little children sitting on his lap all day. Every year there are stories about this like the 11 year old elf that got molested by the santa. Perverts jump to take gigs like this. It is very scary. Now I am not against people wanting pictures of their kids talking to santa. My suggestion has ALWAYS been, get the family together and have everyone pitch in for a santa costume and plan a personlized party putting someone you know and trust into that suit.
Those of us who choose to continue believing as we grow older are generally capable of understanding the symbolism of the Santa myth. Ongoing ego-centrism isn't necessarily a consequence of one day of raking in gifts.
No but it has become to commercialized. It only takes one Christmas working retail to realize that, let alone trying to shop for DD's b-day which comes up near black friday every year. People are greedy and mean. Not all of them but many are. I've had people run into me with their carts...and a car once...on purpose, take things from my children's hands, scream at me, spit on me, steal DD bday gifts from the cart and the kids christmas gifts from the cart as well. The first year we thought we were so clever and we went out late at night to do our shopping....only to meet up with another registered sex offender trying to prey on our daughter. She was right there in the front of the cart behind us but that pervert was right there. I'm just lucky we live in a small town so we actually can recognize these people. You can't win for losing. And when I'm home and talking to family on the phone I constantly hear, "Now you know what to get me for Christmas." Uh...sorry....didn't you say last week you couldn't pay your electric bill? Why are you talking about getting anyone presents? And Im the one with the logic problem...Im TOO logical for them. They don't like anyone that might remind them they they have a guilty conscience inside them trying to get out.
No, not everyone is this way. Many more than should be are though. It is sad.
No but it has become to commercialized. It only takes one Christmas working retail to realize that, let alone trying to shop for DD's b-day which comes up near black friday every year. People are greedy and mean. Not all of them but many are. I've had people run into me with their carts...and a car once...on purpose, take things from my children's hands, scream at me, spit on me, steal DD bday gifts from the cart and the kids christmas gifts from the cart as well. The first year we thought we were so clever and we went out late at night to do our shopping....only to meet up with another registered sex offender trying to prey on our daughter. She was right there in the front of the cart behind us but that pervert was right there. I'm just lucky we live in a small town so we actually can recognize these people. You can't win for losing. And when I'm home and talking to family on the phone I constantly hear, "Now you know what to get me for Christmas." Uh...sorry....didn't you say last week you couldn't pay your electric bill? Why are you talking about getting anyone presents? And Im the one with the logic problem...Im TOO logical for them. They don't like anyone that might remind them they they have a guilty conscience inside them trying to get out.
No, not everyone is this way. Many more than should be are though. It is sad.
Here's what I love about your posts. Because you encounter a sex offender at the shopping mall, because there's a mass of people at the malls, because a very small percentage of people behave in a way that's counter to the spirit of the season, you paint everybody with the same ungenerous brush. How sad your worldview is.
You better watch out. Keep it up and people will start telling you that you have a superiority issue or that you talk about yourself too much.
Thank you for following up this sentence with a prime example of what others here are complaining about - typical nonstop blustering and arguing with others. You enter threads and immediately turn them into self-serving autobiographies complete with extremely longwinded backpatting of yourself and your wunderkind, all while backhanding the opinions of other parents here as though we're all a bunch of primitive rubes with nary a clue of how to raise children. THEN you complain when this is pointed out to you that you're being picked on.
You are the mother that many other mothers run and hide from - not because you are different, as you constantly point out, but because you come across as extremely smug and holier-than-thou. Deny it all you like - your behavior here however is an obvious contradiction of your denial.
so much can be lost in translation from phone calls and e mails. In previous years Michael had much stronger beliefs about perpetuating the myth. Still I find it interesting that my original post incited folks to label him as immature, unhappy, manipulative and that I was full of guilt. Where did that come from?
Obviously he is mellowing out and that is a good thing.
It came from your first post. In that one, he sounded incredibly immature and hostile.
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Let us step back a few years.... So there is a guy and a woman who live in the middle of our town. The big slob rides his bike while he screams at his wife to stay up with him as she runs behind behind him. He's a jerk and a creep. When I first met these people I was told by DH, before he was DH, to get away from them. He approached me where I worked and began to talk to me and DH authoritively came up and took me off to do some made up project. He knew I was new to the area and had seen how nice I had been with other mentally challenged adults. (I have close relatives with challenges that I grew up with so I have a lot of compassion and will let them talk my ear off and help them any way I can.) He takes me back to the office and sits me down to tell me what this guy had told him before he had started talking to me..."So the cops came to my house last night. A 12 year old boy was misisng and they wanted to check my basement. I told them I don't do that anymore." DH...err...my boss (
) tells me that everytime anyone sees him come in, they want to punch him. Everyone hates him and it made him sick to see the guy standing their patting my shoulder and me allowing it. Then he tells me his nickname...perverted santa...turns out the reason he ever got caught for molesting children was...you guessed it...while ho-hoing at the local walmart with little children sitting on his lap all day. 
