Does the Coal Region have any hope for an "Urban" Revival? (Philadelphia: real estate, houses)

[eschaton]

On the Urban Planning subforum, the discussion drifted recently to the various boroughs in the Eastern PA Coal Region. Mostly because of how unusual their urban typology is for the U.S.

There are a dozen or more small to medium-sized boroughs within an hour and a half drive of one another. All of them have dense gridded streets, historic rowhouses, and intact (if mostly empty) downtowns. What people found most unusual about them from other states is they have no suburbs at all - they go straight from rowhome to wilderness. Three of them (Shamokin, Mount Carmel, and Mahanoy City) are within the top 25 densest populated municipalities in the state, even after many consecutive decades of deep population declines.

While I know the area is economically depressed now, due to no jobs, it strikes me that these towns have a lot which could be appealing. Many small towns elsewhere in the country with inferior amenities, like Marfa Texas or Ward, Colorado, have been turned into artist towns, and the incredibly low cost of living coupled with (if they filled up again) a walkable downtown could make them quite attractive. I could see the areas having big appeal to retirees as well, who wouldn't have to worry about no jobs in the area. Hell, Jim Thorpe isn't far away from this area, and shows how it could potentially be done (although hopefully the commercial and residential side would be integrated better).

Anyway, some opinions from people more local would be appreciated. I've driven through the area before, but never spent much time.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by eschaton

they go straight from rowhome to wilderness.

Not necessarily but they aren't what you would call the typical suburb, technically speaking the urban areas would more closley resemble your typical suburb. You're going to have many areas surrounded by "suburbs" but they will be on 2+acre lots. The + could be very large but it's contiguous house properties. These areas can be older well established homes or new ones.

Here's what I mean: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=apple...nia+18643&z=17

[PreservationPioneer]

I would personally love to live in a town like that. Historic row homes and walkable downtown in the middle of wilderness with no suburban sprawl. Sounds perfect. Maybe I should move to Pottsville.

[BPP1999]

I think the restoration of passenger service to Pottsville via Reading would be huge for that region. While SEPTA has been talking about bringing trains back to Reading ever since the service to Pottsville stopped in the early 80's, no one talks about bringing the trains all the way back to their original destination. Even modest service such as 4 daily trips - morning, noon, afternoon, night - would be worth considering.

This is something Dick Yeungling could get behind, for business reasons, for community reasons, and as a legacy to leave on his area. A Saturday train excursion through the hills of coal country plus a brewery tour and dinner sounds like a great time to me. The track is there; SEPTA just needs to secure funding for some of those dual-mode diesel/electric locomotives. Pottsville is a great little town in a nice region that needs an economic shot in the arm that isn't going to come from anywhere else.

[MatildaLoo]

Interesting question. I don't think it will happen in this lifetime, though. I do think Pottsville has its charm, and I'm not counting it among these communities. Places like Ashland, Frackville, Shamokin, etc. will have to wait a generation or two before any change comes, though, IMO. The older generations would need to die off first. The younger generations usually don't stay if they go to college/into the armed forces. My impression is that the people who live there now like their way of life just fine, and they don't really want it to change.

I can't say I really blame them: these places are the places you think of when you picture small town America, with their parades and their community spirit and feeling. Unfortunately without sustainable industry, they are starting to crumble. As the poster stated above, I don't see how this region will find the economic stability that it needs to recover. It's not really in the Marcellus Shale play, although if the industry were to really take off they may see some economic benefit through transient workers (highly unlikely, given the glut of wells and the low prices of dry gas from the region, I think the nat gas industry in eastern PA has hit a speed bump for now and it would take a lot for its impact to reach as far as Schuylkill County). There are warehouses in the area, but not enough with high enough paying jobs to provide real sustainability to the population. Some people tend to work for the state and commute to Harrisburg, but with budget cuts and increasing traffic on I-81, that's not a great option either. They are facing a lot of the same problems as everywhere else in America, but it seems more pronounced because of their great economic history during the days of King Coal.

There are quite a few differences between these communities and a place like Jim Thorpe, too. For one thing, Jim Thorpe heavily marketed itself by allowing a famous dead athlete to be buried there. Jim Thorpe is also much closer in proximity to NJ and NY, which is where a lot of the people on the west side of town (the touristy part) come from. Its Switzerland-like appearance and historic Victorians draw artsy types from the city who might otherwise feel too isolated if they were further away from urban corridors like 476 and I-78. Strangely, JT and Schuylkill County share a lot of the same history, so I can't help but wonder if they can chalk a lot of it up to good PR (after all, communities like Nesquehoning, Lansford, and Summit Hill seem to be falling apart).

Being situated in the southwestern part of the Poconos also offers Jim Thorpe advantages because it is has the activities that people want: whitewater rafting, kayaking, etc. (I don't think the Schuylkill is deep enough or wild enough for that, but I could be wrong), plus lots of hiking and biking trails surrounding the Lehigh. I'm not sure that Schuylkill County has these same types of amenities to capitalize on.

I could be proven wrong. Lots of places in Central Pa seem to be revitalizing themselves, so maybe the southern coal region will follow suit. I'd like to see it happen, I just wouldn't bet on it.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I would personally love to live in a town like that. Historic row homes and walkable downtown in the middle of wilderness with no suburban sprawl. Sounds perfect. Maybe I should move to Pottsville.

Check out what you can get for $50,000.

[pman]

revitalized rail service has been good to lancaster and I agree it would benefit some of these regions provided it was reasonably fast. SEPTA would take too long, I think reading should be keystone style service with fewer stops. if you can revitalize the regional cities it will be good for the surrounding towns.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Check out what you can get for $50,000.

That looks to be fairly nice home for $50K but what's underneath? See that window under the porch? That's the old coal bin or possibly still in use and that's necessarily a bad thing.

Real estate is not that expensive in this area, the houses you see in the link I posted might be approaching 1 million in the right neighborhood near NYC based on what I've seen on some of these TV shows. They are selling for $200K+ here.

As far as the $50K houses you have to be very careful about the neighborhood. The typical scenario is those homes are owned by senior citizens and usually well kept if they are the original owners. They might have a single bath that can literally fit one person. In My Grandmothers house for example it's 3 bedroom but you have to walk through one bedroom to get to the other. If you look at the bedroom pictures for that house you linked too that appears to be how it is there. Electricity,plumbing and other main things usually needs updating and if you want to bring those homes up to date you're going to put a lot of money into them. For a lot of those houses if you're going to do a major renovation you're better off leveling it and starting from scratch. They might have multiple small addtions or changes over the years, patchworked electrical systems etc. When you get into something like that it's a money pit.

Because of that finding buyers becomes problematic and the kids or even Grandkids are not interested. The houses get sold for cheap and they are often snapped up by landlords that aren't going to invest and/or people that don't have the money to invest. You get a less desirable element and the neighborhood deteriorates over time.

[santafe400]

The isolation of the townships that comprise the heart of "coal country" including Frackville, Mt. Carmel, Ashland, Mahanoy City prove to be both an asset and a deterrence in marketing new businesses and residents to set up shop in and around these townships. I especially have a romantic notion with Mt. Carmel since it appears to be a town lost in time. Indeed, as other posters have mentioned these struggling Main Street USA towns are in driving distance from some of the major population centers along the east-coast including New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Harrisburg. If anyone has traveled through Ashland there is certainly a spark of revival, and only a few entrepreneurs would need to invest in order for it to become say another Wellsboro type of town. It kills me to see main street Mt. Carmel struggling to survive, it seems to have the potential to become a hidden gem with its quaint natural setting and funky grid street pattern.

The funny part is, I believe some of these adjacent towns could probably take advantage of the local fame that have made the abdonded town of Centralia such a hit.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

and that's necessarily a bad thing. .

Should read: "and that's not necessarily a bad thing."