Were cities like Erie and similar places with large manufacturing DESTROYED by de-industrialization? (Philadelphia: moving to, estimates)

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by bluecarebear

Pennsylvania is not business friendly, ESPECIALLY not small business friendly. That is what fuels the sprawl and why only non-profits stay within city limits. Unfortunately, we live in a state and country that is becoming more and more government centered and tougher on the small business guys. I know a bunch of people who keep their businesses out in the country because they can avoid the hassle of certain city and county governments.

bluecarebear

We usually don't agree on much, but I completely agree with what you posted here and I would add that several of the cities in PA are making up for the lost tax revenue from businesses by taxing the residents more rather than offering corporate and small business tax incentives to recover some of the lost revenues. I will never understand this all or nothing philosophy when it comes to taxing businesses in PA. Many of the PA cities seem to have politicians who would rather get no taxes from small businesses or larger companies rather than lower the taxes for these organizations even slightly and receive some revenue. Non-profits are great for western PA and Erie because of the jobs they create and the services they provide, but the residents of PA cities cannot pay all of the property taxes and what happens when the companies who moved to the suburbs eventually leave the state? I am more for small business tax incentives to get businesses to relocate to the city of Erie than I am for corporate tax incentives, but I understand both are necessary because the business tax rates and property tax rates that businesses pay in PA are too high and something needs to be done to spur business development.

[trackstar13]

Another thought that I have for all of those interested in this thread is the issue of PA casinos. Erie like several other metros in the state has a casino that was promised to generate significant tax revenue that would help offset the property tax bills of those living in Erie county. The link to the article I posted below sums up most of this issue, but casino revenues are declining and a significant portion of the revenues are earmarked for things other than property tax relief. I think annually I get about 7% off (thanks to the casino) of my property tax bill that has gone up about 20-30% per year. The 20-30% is an average and I know my tax bill won't go up every year and hopefully the percentage increase will be less in the future because it is no longer a recent purchase and I am already assessed above the purchase price. Luckily, I have the means to deal with this, but this has a significant effect on renters and people who own their home but are struggling to live paycheck to paycheck. For instance, if I was renting my house I would just pass the tax increases on to the tenants and rent would go up significantly. Also, for those that are struggling to get by, imagine what they could do if they were able to pay less property taxes. I could truly envision middle class and lower middle class families finally completing some of the exterior renovations on their homes that they have been putting off for years, decreasing their debt burden, and several other positive things that could have a positive impact on the area. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts about the casinos and what other options there are to decrease the property tax burden in Erie and other areas of PA.

http://www.pennstatelawreview.org/ar...ev.%201003.pdf

[trackstar13]

Sorry for all the posts at once, but here are a few relevant links. PA was recently rated as one of the least small business friendly states in the country. I found it interesting that PA was rated even worse than NY and it appears things are getting worse from 2013.

GoErie.com Blogs: Biz Buzz - Survey says Pennsylvania not business-friendly
United States Small Business Friendliness Survey - Thumbtack

[Icy Tea]

Pa is pretty unique in that it is home to a Bellwether town, one that pretty much encapsulates the country currently and predicts where the country as a whole is heading. That town is Reading Pa. Look at Reading, you see America as it used to be, how it is today and how its going to be.
As it was, Reading was an industry and manufacturing town, they made everything. As a county, they manufactured cars, textiles, furniture, steel. It was the railroad town. Plus it was surrounded by some of the most productive farmland the country has. Beyond that it had coal and iron mines not too far away. Allentown is practically its twin although its proximity to NYC has helped stabilize its own decline. Lancaster is similar but agriculture has been maintained as its chief business.
Most or much of that is gone now. Manufacturing is gone. Much farmland( but not all) has been lost to suburban sprawl. Iron and steel are gone. Railroads, mostly gone. Coal is under assault. Its largely a service based economy. Stores and healthcare. Spanish speaking people make up 50% of the city and about 20% of the county. That's America's future, good or bad or in between. A city that's a shell of its former self looking to reinvent itself. Maybe it will. Or poverty and crime will continue to cripple it.
Reading was ahead of the curve when it was home to Lucent, then that folded in the 1990s. Banking was big too, now that's declining.
New trends the county is seeing is warehousing and data storage along with food processing.
Look at Reading and you see America as it is and where its heading.

[bluecarebear]

Originally Posted by Icy Tea

Pa is pretty unique in that it is home to a Bellwether town, one that pretty much encapsulates the country currently and predicts where the country as a whole is heading. That town is Reading Pa. Look at Reading, you see America as it used to be, how it is today and how its going to be.
As it was, Reading was an industry and manufacturing town, they made everything. As a county, they manufactured cars, textiles, furniture, steel. It was the railroad town. Plus it was surrounded by some of the most productive farmland the country has. Beyond that it had coal and iron mines not too far away. Allentown is practically its twin although its proximity to NYC has helped stabilize its own decline. Lancaster is similar but agriculture has been maintained as its chief business.
Most or much of that is gone now. Manufacturing is gone. Much farmland( but not all) has been lost to suburban sprawl. Iron and steel are gone. Railroads, mostly gone. Coal is under assault. Its largely a service based economy. Stores and healthcare. Spanish speaking people make up 50% of the city and about 20% of the county. That's America's future, good or bad or in between. A city that's a shell of its former self looking to reinvent itself. Maybe it will. Or poverty and crime will continue to cripple it.
Reading was ahead of the curve when it was home to Lucent, then that folded in the 1990s. Banking was big too, now that's declining.
New trends the county is seeing is warehousing and data storage along with food processing.
Look at Reading and you see America as it is and where its heading.

Every county had wealthy donors at one time because of the small local banks. That money is now gone through mega mergers that occurred in the 90s. Glad you mentioned banking. Few people realize how deregulation destroyed the small towns across PA and the country.

The US is on it's way to becoming a third world country. People will argue against this but it is inevitable. Immigrants from the poorest countries are flooding in. Erie is lucky because it is one of the few cities that hasn't experienced this...yet.

At times I want to live in a vibrant downtown, then reality hits and I want to be a prepper.

[gousa14]

Well, I'd rather have the US become third world than to completely collapse. Then again, that depends on what you mean by "collapse".

Even third world countries have their nicer spots I guess.

And I did see trackstar's population projection links before, but I guess I forgot about it while making this thread.

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by bluecarebear

Every county had wealthy donors at one time because of the small local banks. That money is now gone through mega mergers that occurred in the 90s. Glad you mentioned banking. Few people realize how deregulation destroyed the small towns across PA and the country..

Every industrialized nation has a central bank, and our Federal Reserve is, to my knowledge, the least centralized among them. It does, unfortunately, concentrate power, and power is subject to abuse. That's what happened both in 1928-29 and 2006-2008. Rather than let the abusers fall through the cracks, our politicians, from both major parties, were gullible enough to bail some of them out.

The US is on it's way to becoming a third world country. People will argue against this but it is inevitable. Immigrants from the poorest countries are flooding in. Erie is lucky because it is one of the few cities that hasn't experienced this...yet..

An oversimplification; the artificial advantage we gained after World War II has been pretty well reduced, and we now have to compete like everybody else. That doesn't bode well for people who grew up expecting te soft life.

[PreservationPioneer]

De-industrialization played a role, but also:

-white flight
-sprawl and suburbanization
-bad urban renewal
-schools
-stigma of urban areas / fear of crime and blight
-people fleeing to the sunbelt
-culture of negativity

Erie wouldn't be able to support its healthy suburbs unless it had some kind of economy. Figure out how to get the development and the people from the suburbs back into the city. That is the major issue everywhere.

[trackstar13]

Well this is very timely and adds to the discussion. I was reading the Erie Times yesterday and I noticed that a new Erie County population projection study has been published recently by the Pennsylvania State Data Center and the results are very interesting if they hold true. Here are a few excerpts from the study and I have included the links below:

"The Pennsylvania State Data Center is forecasting an 11.5 percent rise in Erie County's population by 2040, with the number of county residents soaring to nearly 313,000.
Coordinators of the study cite a projected number of births outpacing the number of deaths and a significant bump in migration to Erie County as reasons for the spike."

"People moving to Erie County from other states and countries will increase by nearly 16,000 by 2040, according to the study."

Study: Erie County's population to rise 11 percent by 2040 | GoErie.com/Erie Times-News
http://pasdc.hbg.psu.edu/sdc/pasdc_f...ies_10to13.pdf

[Clark Park]

Originally Posted by bluecarebear

The US is on it's way to becoming a third world country. People will argue against this but it is inevitable. Immigrants from the poorest countries are flooding in. Erie is lucky because it is one of the few cities that hasn't experienced this...yet.

Originally Posted by gousa14

Well, I'd rather have the US become third world than to completely collapse. Then again, that depends on what you mean by "collapse".

I guess some people have never been to a "Third World" country. I have. Believe me, the US is not a Third World country, not close to it and is not going to become one in our lifetimes.

Immigrants wouldn't be trying to get here if it wasn't a rich country.

As far as de-industrialization goes, don't forget that the PA city that was traumatized the most was not Erie or even Pittsburgh ... but Philadelphia. People seem to forget that Philly's Hog Island shipyard in the 1910's and 1920's was the largest shipyard in the entire world, with something like 38,000 workers on site any given day and 50 berths and slipways, launching a new battleship every day. Wasn't one of the largest railroad manufacturing factories in the world the Baldwin Locomotive Works which had something like 18,000 workers on it's 100 acre site right on North Broad Street? Isn't any wonder that Philly lost 600,000 people between 1950 and 2000?

Both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are not sitting in corner and crying about past glory. As world class cities we are busy re-inventing ourselves and leading the way as major "Ed & Med" destinations.