Pennsyltucky? (Pittsburgh, Lewistown, Shamokin: schools, foods, areas)

[PA2UK]

Originally Posted by Duderino

You make completely valid points, but I think there are even more nuances in rural PA as compared to the interior South (clearly, Central PA has absolutely nothing in common with the lowland and coastal South, due to many factors like vastly different topography, history, industry, religion and racial composition).

Although it is indeed true that many Scots-Irish settled in PA and then made their way through Southern Appalachia, there are still other ethnic groups (i.e., Italians and Eastern Europeans) that can actually be found in enclaves all over Pennsylvania.

Religiously, there's far more of a Catholic adherence across Pennsylvania, in addition to far more "mainline" Protestant denominations, Jewish enclaves and, of course, Quaker roots, that are all almost foreign across the South.

There are also many more traditionally urban and post-industrial small cities and towns with a very dense built environment across even rural Pennsylvania that contrast completely with any state to the south of Pennsylvania, which allowed the state to develop such a large population and political influence so early on in the nation's history.

Even governmentally, Pennsylvania has a strong local government tradition, which has provided it with more fiefdoms than almost any other state in the US excepting Illinois (in addition to one of the few "professionalized" full-time legislatures, which is also basically unheard of in the South). Compare this to the strong county government model of every Southern state, and you quickly begin to see how even the political structure and culture in the South is very different.

I don't necessarily disagree with all that - my first thought when mentioning "mainly Pennsylvania Dutch" was the influences on speech. Having grown up in central PA, I'm very familiar with certain terms which came from them, which you likely won't hear in the south.

Italians mostly settled in urban areas, and while some may have moved into rural areas later on (I myself have Italian ancestry but grew up in central PA), I don't think they had any impact on the dialect (people in rural PA don't refer to pasta sauce as "gravy" for example, like many Italian-Americans in urban areas still do).

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by PA2UK

I don't necessarily disagree with all that - my first thought when mentioning "mainly Pennsylvania Dutch" was the influences on speech. Having grown up in central PA, I'm very familiar with certain terms which came from them, which you likely won't hear in the south.

Italians mostly settled in urban areas, and while some may have moved into rural areas later on (I myself have Italian ancestry but grew up in central PA), I don't think they had any impact on the dialect (people in rural PA don't refer to pasta sauce as "gravy" for example, like many Italian-Americans in urban areas still do).

Plenty of Italians settled in Northumberland County in the Coal Regions mainly, right off of the boat via Ellis Island. I also never heard the word Gravy used for Sauce. Accents and words, well you use to be able to hear it in Snyder County, I heard distinct differences between Northumberland and Snyder County.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by blauskies

Plenty of Italians settled in Northumberland County in the Coal Regions mainly, right off of the boat via Ellis Island. I also never heard the word Gravy used for Sauce. Accents and words, well you use to be able to hear it in Snyder County, I heard distinct differences between Northumberland and Snyder County.

NYC/New Jersey thing.

[michgc]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

NYC/New Jersey thing.

Not necessarily. I heard it from all of my Italian friends in my Philly suburb. They all called sauce "gravy."

[PA2UK]

Originally Posted by blauskies

Plenty of Italians settled in Northumberland County in the Coal Regions mainly, right off of the boat via Ellis Island. I also never heard the word Gravy used for Sauce. Accents and words, well you use to be able to hear it in Snyder County, I heard distinct differences between Northumberland and Snyder County.

That doesn't surprise me since the coal mines would have brought in immigrant laborers. But as someone else was saying, central to western PA is really more like the areas we're talking about.

As for Gravy vs Sauce, not all Italian-Americans use it, especially these days, it's dying out.

The Eternal Italian American Debate: ‘Gravy’ or ‘Sauce’ | Bostoniano.info

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by michgc

Not necessarily. I heard it from all of my Italian friends in my Philly suburb. They all called sauce "gravy."

I agree. When we lived in Delaware county I met quite a few people with an Italian background, who themselves grew up in Philly, that called pasta sauce gravy.

[2nd trick op]

The 1920 Census included questions of ethnicity which were later used to establish the quota system, which would rule for the next forty years; German descendants, rather than English, Scotch or Irish, were found to be greatest in numbers for the nation as a whole, and the disparity was even more pronounced in Pennsylvania. From Colonial times until the 1850's many state documents had to be printed in German as well as English. So much for those who are easily upset by bilingualism.

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by PA2UK

That doesn't surprise me since the coal mines would have brought in immigrant laborers. But as someone else was saying, central to western PA is really more like the areas we're talking about.

As for Gravy vs Sauce, not all Italian-Americans use it, especially these days, it's dying out.

The Eternal Italian American Debate: ‘Gravy’ or ‘Sauce’ | Bostoniano.info

Northumberland County is Central PA, but maybe your Central PA is different from mine?

It's good it's dying out because ask any Italian what Gravy is and they will look at you like a deer in headlights lol, it's purely an American concoction.

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

NYC/New Jersey thing.

Yes, I know. I knew actual Italians from Italy, they called sauce "Salsa" or "Sugo".

[zitsky]

Originally Posted by speagles84

Not even close. PA is pretty conservative. Without Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, it would be a red state. Scranton and Erie aren't big enough liberal areas to counteract the rest of the state.

I agree. Not sure where anyone gets the idea that PA is liberal. I'm from Johnstown. There are a lot of socially conservative liberals there who probably vote Republican these days.

And I've heard Pennsyltucky used for anything outside Pittsburgh and Philly.