Are people in Pennsylvania happy about infrastructure? (Pittsburgh, Harrisburg: salons, home)

[BPP1999]

Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi

Just a friendly reminder that "more than four lanes" does not necessarily mean "10 or more lanes," even though both phrases rhyme. In fact, "more than four lanes" most often means "six or eight lanes." Therefore, it is not normal to conjure up mental images of Atlanta or Houston when somebody says, "I-76 in Philadelphia and I-376 in Pittsburgh need more than four lanes." Those highways don't need 10 or more lanes, but they certainly do need more than four.

Well said. I agree completely with this. We are not a 10-lane state. But we shouldn’t settle for being a 4-lane state.

[BPP1999]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

The point is, atop those hills on the landward side of the freeway sits Gladwyne, the most affluent (and also probably the wealthiest) of all the communities on the Main Line. And there are houses on top of those hills. Propose dynamiting them to add even one lane to the eastbound expressway and watch the fur fly — the protests would probably rival those against a six-lane-wide Blue Route through Swarthmore in intensity, and we all know how that turned out.

Now, it might be possible to build a deck next to the westbound lanes that would project over the railroad that runs next to them** (said railroad also separates a small riverside slice of Gladwyne from the rest of the community). But that would probably cost as much as simply double-decking the existing freeway.

* However, I think the pave-the-earth crowd fails to appreciate the role the city's very good network of primary arterial streets, including its prized boulevards, plays in achieving this result. Philadelphia would have to demolish some rowhouse corridors to produce such a network.

** And for about a mile or so west of the Green Lane/Belmont Avenue (Manayunk) interchange, a railroad also runs right next to the eastbound lanes. (This railroad goes into the Flat Rock Tunnel, whose other end is located just below the west end of the Schuylkill's Pencoyd Viaduct.) The Schuylkill is truly hemmed in here in a way that makes widening not a simple task at all.

We don’t need to dynamite entire hills. More like 10-12 feet on each side, or 25 feet on one side. The Gladwynians should be offered sound walls as enticement.

Yes, I am aware of the railroad line. I ponder this every time I get close to Manayunk.

If I had the money, I’d like to sponsor a national competition among engineering students and call it “How would you propose capacity expansion along the Schuylkill Expressway?” I’d like to see what folks from other regions might say. They might lack our can’t-do attitude.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by BPP1999

We don’t need to dynamite entire hills. More like 10-12 feet on each side, or 25 feet on one side. The Gladwynians should be offered sound walls as enticement.

Yes, I am aware of the railroad line. I ponder this every time I get close to Manayunk.

If I had the money, I’d like to sponsor a national competition among engineering students and call it “How would you propose capacity expansion along the Schuylkill Expressway?” I’d like to see what folks from other regions might say. They might lack our can’t-do attitude.

You have a point about the attitude, and I do sound like a Negadelphian here.

But I'd like to submit that the odds of remaking Roosevelt Boulevard are actually pretty good — and in case you missed it, the subway line that the DVRPC removed from its Sears catalog of transportation projects to tackle back in 2015 is back in play again, with PennDOT agreeing to sponsor yet another study.

I wrote back in 2012 that we should do to the Boulevard what we did to Vine Street in the 1990s, namely, put the inner lanes in a trench and turn them into the freeway everyone treats the street as already. You could then include a Chicago-style rapid-transit line in its median, as previous city studies of the BSL Northeast Spur have envisioned. The New Yorker who put the Boulevard subway back into play disagrees with me on the merits of the freeway, but with or without it, PennDOT is pretty much committed to doing something to make the Boulevard work better both for those driving on it and those taking their lives into their hands trying to cross it.

[Muinteoir]

Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi

Just a friendly reminder that "more than four lanes" does not necessarily mean "10 or more lanes," even though both phrases rhyme. In fact, "more than four lanes" most often means "six or eight lanes." Therefore, it is not normal to conjure up mental images of Atlanta or Houston when somebody says, "I-76 in Philadelphia and I-376 in Pittsburgh need more than four lanes." Those highways don't need 10 or more lanes, but they certainly do need more than four.

Houston's asphalt jungle was not built in one expansionary project. It is an expansionary "pave the earth" mindset that has plagued the city for decades. I think it's "normal" to warn against such mindsets when highway expansions are proposed as the solution to traffic issues. It is important to many of us who think such sunbelt cities have done a poor job with urban planning that we do not replicate that mindset. As discussed earlier in the thread, expanding highways is proven to induce demand.

I am open minded to a double-deck on 76 from KoP to at least Manayunk, if not all the way through to the 26th St exit (I-95 connection). I am opposed to much else. We have a nice railway network that with which we can continue to expand connectivity and frequency.

[Marv95]

Heck no, which is one of the reasons why I left. As bad as roads here in Minnesota are, it's not nearly as a joke as PA's, especially near Pittsburgh. At least you know where taxes are going. What's PA's excuse?

Mass transit outside the 2 big cities is GARBAGE. No excuse not to have Sunday bus service in the capital city of one of the most populated states in the country. None. It's also not an excuse to have atrocious bus service to/from the distribution centers that have popped up in the region recently.

[jtab4994]

On Thursday and Friday I drove on I-80, I-380, I-84, I-81, US 6 (Casey Highway) and Business 6 in NEPA. There is a big bridge replacement project going on near Scranton on I-84/380. PennDot is also undertaking to link I-476 with I-81 in Clarks Summit (may not have started yet). I've previously mentioned the I-80 widening in Monroe County. Despite the rainy and wintry mix conditions we really didn't hit any delays because of the construction.

So they are working on some projects, at least in NEPA. Although PA-611 will remain closed between Portland and Delaware Water Gap until August, causing lost business in both towns.

[Tweb66]

Nm

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by Marv95

Heck no, which is one of the reasons why I left. As bad as roads here in Minnesota are, it's not nearly as a joke as PA's, especially near Pittsburgh. At least you know where taxes are going. What's PA's excuse?

Probably the fact that a) PennDOT has as many miles of roads to maintain as CTDOT, MaineDOT, MassDOT, NHDOT, NJDOT, NYSDOT, RIDOT and VTrans combined, and b) Pennsylvania is not as rich as New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts or New Hampshire, so less tax revenue per capita has to get spread across far more road infrastructure.

As for the roads in Pittsburgh, roads are simply more difficult and expensive to maintain in mountainous areas than they are in flat areas. That's a fact, not an excuse. Don't believe me? Travel to North Carolina sometime, and notice how the road quality in western North Carolina is a notch below the road quality in central and eastern North Carolina.

By the way, here's a map of the United States with every state ranked by flatness (1 = flattest; 50 = least flat):



Pennsylvania is one of the 10 least-flat states in the U.S., and by far the most populous of those 10. The second-most populous of the 10 least-flat states is Oregon, which ranks 27th in population, compared to 5th for Pennsylvania. In fact, the population of Pennsylvania alone (13,002,700) is within 3,000,000 of the other nine least-flat states combined (15,753,547).

By the way, those who live in the same state as the I-35W bridge collapse should probably not throw stones at other states, especially given that Minnesota is the fifth-flattest state in the U.S., with less than half the population of Pennsylvania and a higher per capita income, so roads should be much easier to maintain there.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi

As for the roads in Pittsburgh, roads are simply more difficult and expensive to maintain in mountainous areas than they are in flat areas. That's a fact, not an excuse. Don't believe me? Travel to North Carolina sometime, and notice how the road quality in western North Carolina is a notch below the road quality in central and eastern North Carolina.

That is an excellent point that I think is lost on many PA residents; thanks for bringing it up.

Not to mention, the sheer number of creeks, streams, and rivers in PA necessitating an untold number of bridges across the state. Guess what other infrastructure type is a money-sucker?

Pennsylvania's topography and waterways are great for aesthetics, but not so great for roadway engineering, building, and maintenance budgets.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by Duderino

Guess what other infrastructure type is a money-sucker?

Bridges and tunnels. And the longer they are, the more expensive they are.